Can you recommend a grain-free legume-free dog food please?

[stampsurprise]

I am currently feeding my terrier on Arden Grange as he reacts badly to wheat. I think he could be doing better though and Arden Grange has a lot of maize in it.

The vet told us he is a few pounds overweight. He will be 6 this year and gets walked about 2 to 2.5 miles a day and we play games too. We wfh and are always together.

I have been reading how a lot of grain-free foods are full of legumes - peas,lentils, chickpeas... apparently they can cause cardiac issues

I read on another forum that someone’s vet recommended sticking to the big manufacturers as the small boutique companies don’t use nutritional bets or feeding trials.

I would be okay with only rice and some potato though. I am struggling to find this however.

On a tight budget but would cut back on something else to buy DDog whatever he needs.

Tbh I am overwhelmed with it all and didn’t realise how many brands were on the market!

Looking for food for my boy has really opened my eyes!

I have an autoimmune disease and spend hours reading conflicting nutritional information for myself - now O have to do dog food too

I haven’t made my final choice yet but I am leaning towards stuff developed by vet nutritionists.

Sadly, my boy will get old one day and die of something but I think I’d feel happier knowing I went with the most expert advice available at the time. So much dog food is unregulated and I don’t want his health gambled on me being swayed by the latest boutique brand.

@DoubleTweenQueen

Have just looked at the composition of the food I've been feeding my young dog for the last 3months - thought I'd made a good choice! I will be returning the new enormous bag I just bought, and change it as soon as I can.

It’s so frustrating isn’t it? We all want to do the very best for our dear pets.

I was considering Orijen until I read this:

pupjunkies.com/orijen-dog-food-review

"As with other Orijen dog foods, this Six Fish formula contains lots of legumes of different kinds. At least here they come after the first named fat (sunflower oil). Still, if you add up all of these different legumes, they form quite a large amount of your dog’s food. You are paying a lot of money for food that contains so many beans and lentils.

The fish in the food look good but you have to wonder why a dog food needs to have so many different kinds of fish. Most dogs are probably happy to have just one kind of fish.

Two or three is great. But all of these different kinds in one food? There are lots of good dog foods that use fish and cost a lot less, since this is an unbiased review.

“Biologically appropriate” is one thing, but no dog (or wolf) in nature is going to get lucky enough to haul in all of those different kinds of fish in one day for a meal – and he’s probably not going to want to eat those pinto beans either.

According to the dry matter analysis for this food, it has 43.2 percent protein, 20.5 percent fat, 4.5 percent fiber, 23.9 percent carbohydrates, and 445 kcal/cup. It is very high in both protein and fat.

Despite our questions, this does appear to be a good dog food. Our rating is 4 out of 5 stars.

How much does Orijen Dog Food cost?

Orijen is probably the most expensive dog food sold.

What do customers think of Orijen Dog Food?

Many customers are in love with Orijen and believe it’s the best dog food available. Other customers have doubts. Some customers have been disgruntled since Champion built their second kitchen in Kentucky and began selling foods made there to American customers.

There is some belief that the Kentucky-made foods are not as good as the foods made in Canada. They can have different ingredients, in order to use “regionally-fresh” foods. Some customers just don’t like the American-made dog foods.

Some other customers have been unhappy since Champion pulled their productsfrom Chewy.com when Chewy.com was sold to PetSmart in 2017.As for Orijen and the food’s connection to dietary dilated cardiomyopathy, few customers seem to be aware of the issue."

MrsPernicious - yes I did read somewhere that half kibble/half wet was getting the best of both worlds for dog.

Thankyou @MrsPernicious x I have a young ESS. She started out on Skinners Field & Trail, but I changed her over to Lily’s Kitchen puppy dry, and feed with a small amount of Barking Heads puppy wet food, which she loves and eats all I give her plus a bit of dry kibble out for top-up when she wants, in the evening.
I have some Forthglade in the cupboard to try, but see it is 28% sweet potato and the next ingredient after that is dried peas.

I came across this site www.notinthedoghouse.co.uk/dogs/dog-food.html and am looking at what they have.

Went to WSAVA, but the big recommended brands all seem to have issues.

Think I may need to look at a prepped raw food - Poppy’s picnic?

This is making my head hurt - lots of conflicting information out there. I just want an expert to tell me, this is the definite food you should feed your dogs, then I would happily buy it. Not got the time or inclination to wade through tonnes of info

Definitive not definite

Yes, it’s a real pain!

@DoubleTweenQueen We use the Forthglade trays, they are 75% meat. On offer in Morrisons at the moment £1 each.

The only food that seems to upset my GSP/GWP stomach is a vet brand food for sensitive tums

My perfect kibble would be a mix of fish and mechanically reclaimed meat (gets all that connective tissue) with a modest mix of fillers. The same kibble would be a nightmare for a dog with food sensitivities.

Most of the ‘premium’ & ‘fresh natural ingredients’ new brands seem to have sweet potato & peas........

Its funny we do avoid too much grains as out current dog has a more sensitive stomach
Out last too dogs lived to 15.5 and 14.3/4 yet we fed them all sorts , including human leftovers.
Yet both lived to a good healthy age
The main reason I now use better food is so we have less mess to clean up really , as long as my dog eats it , keeps a good weight and looks healthy I don't think too much about what he has.
I avoid raw as its not for us as have too many young children visiting and need to be careful with raw meat the odd occasion out dog has raw bone its outside as he isn't that interested in it for more than 5 minutes .

From my limited googling and research (and comprehension!), isn't it just one study (Joshua Stern) that has suggested a link between legumes, sweet potatoes, grain free and heart disease in dogs? Wouldn't it be easier to just feed the dogs bits of kidney to ensure taurine levels are high?

Happy to be corrected by someone who has spent more than my 5 minutes looking into it. If it is just one study, then it might turn out to be an Andrew Wakefield moment? ( a lot of wishful thinking there)

I like our current food (does contain some legumes and is no grain) - my flatcoat's coat is much shinier and he seems fitter and more energetic, and my rescue dog doesn't cope with grains and gets flatulence

I'm also thinking its a bit odd that I spending a lot of time worrying about my dogs nutrition but hardly contemplating my teenagers (sub optimal) diets

Nice article here agelesspaws.com/grain-free-dog-food-and-heart-disease with references.
About the potential link between grain-free dog foods and a condition called canine dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) including sensible suggestions like supplementing/choosing feed with offal or oily fish.

Thanks for that MrsPernicious - easy to follow and with practical suggestions

I think the problem is that not all grains are created equal and most dogs do not need a completely grain free diet. Unless there are clear signs of intolerance/allergy, most dogs can eat grains. Grain free food started out as a fad, people started seeking it out, so manufacturers responded to the market and now it’s hard to find foods that contain grain.

Things like pea protein have been around in dog foods for a very long time. It’s when legumes/potatoes start being included in high percentages that things get unbalanced, especially in boutique brands that don’t employ veterinary nutritionists in their product development.

I now wouldn’t feed a food that listed ingredients as meat then legume/potato as their two main ingredients, but a food that has perhaps 1-2 percent peas wouldn’t concern me.

My current dog has been on Skinners Salmon and Rice for almost a decade. We started him on it on the advice of a behaviourist who specialises in his breed, when we were seeing them with my other dog. He is a grand old age and is having some age-related health issues now, but has always been super healthy until he reached very-old-age. So it must suit him. Before that both dogs were on Canagan, which cost a fortune and didn’t really suit either of them. Historically, many, many, moons ago my dogs were fed raw, but we can’t really accommodate that very easily here and I do have concerns about pathogens.

I am still researching what I’m going to feed my next dog. I started off thinking complete raw, then grain free, then read about legumes and potatoes and still haven’t found a brand I’m completely happy with. I’m now thinking grain free isn’t necessary, unless I find the dog is showing signs of intolerance or allergy. So, I will hopefully, eventually, find a complete, cooked, food that sources high-grade meat and uses minimal legume/potato, but doesn’t necessarily eliminate them completely (purely because that seems impossible to find right now). I would probably favour brown rice as my grain of choice, but that’s personal preference. If I really can’t find a suitable food that meets my list of requirements, I may go for a grain free one and perhaps add a little brown rice into their diet via treats/kongs etc.

@MrsPernicious. Thank you for linking that article. Just read it and it appears to back up my thought process, which is reassuring.

@LimitIsUp

This is making my head hurt - lots of conflicting information out there. I just want an expert to tell me, this is the definite food you should feed your dogs, then I would happily buy it. Not got the time or inclination to wade through tonnes of info

Yes I feel exhausted by it too. I have to do the same for myself with my health problems. Drives me mad.

vetnutrition.tufts.edu/2018/11/dcm-update/

"It’s Not Just Grain-Free: An Update on Diet-Associated Dilated Cardiomyopathy"

"The apparent link between BEG diets and DCM may be due to ingredients used to replace grains in grain-free diets, such as lentils or chickpeas, but also may be due to other common ingredients commonly found in BEG diets, such as exotic meats, vegetables, and fruits."

I've just received this email from my dogfood suppliers in response to a query I raised with them:

Thank you for getting in touch and I hope you are having a lovely week. It's Leah here, one of the in- house Vet Nurses at Butternut 👋

Since the FDA report investigating the links between grain-free food and DCM was released in 2018, we've been paying a huge amount of attention to the topic.

"We completely appreciate your concern as a pet parent. As a company (and as pet parents ourselves) we pride ourselves on, first and foremost, cooking healthy, safe food for the dogs we feed.

Our co-founder, Dave, has taken the time to write a blog post about the FDA report outlining our formal response to its claims. You can find this here. The important part of this post is from an update in June 2020, where research made up of 150 studies concluded that there is no link between grain free diets and DCM.

The lentils and peas on average make up between 7-10% of our meals, depending on the recipe. We also soak our lentils before cooking them to make sure they are as digestible as possible.

I hope this helps to put you at ease and if you have any other questions, please feel free to get in touch. Enjoy your weekend!"

And this was the blog post referred to: butternutbox.com/blog/butternut-news/dcm-and-grain-free-diets

Thanks @stampsurprise another good article.

We buy a minced meat mix from our local butchers and cook it in the pressure cooker with a variety of veg including carrots, spinach, squash etc.

DDog is a 3 yr old large mixed breed, very healthy, with good regular poo’s and no flatulence ever.

He had his recent annual check up plus jabs and the vet said his coat was amazingly shiny.

I put the quotation marks in the wrong place - it starts at 'thank you for getting in touch'

Interesting that meta analysis comprising 150 studies from June 2020 suggests no link between grain free, legume rich and heart disease

@LimitIsUp

I put the quotation marks in the wrong place - it starts at 'thank you for getting in touch'

Interesting that meta analysis comprising 150 studies from June 2020 suggests no link between grain free, legume rich and heart disease

Thank you for this - I read the Butternut post and the Journal of Animal Science stuff.

It does appear they haven’t made a direct link but feeding lots of legumes does seem to be a relatively new thing.

The FDA don’t seem to have any updates beyond June 2019 where I took the following excerpts:

www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/outbreaks-and-advisories/fda-investigation-potential-link-between-certain-diets-and-canine-dilated-cardiomyopathy

“Animal numbers in DCM Reports received between January 1, 2014 and April 30, 2019

Number of reports	Number of animals affected	Number of deaths

Dogs 515 560 119
Cats* 9 14 5
*Cats are generally more likely to develop hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (a heart disease)

Dilated cardiomyopathy is recognized as a genetic condition in dogs, typically in large or giant breeds, such as the Doberman Pinscher, Great Dane, or the Irish Wolfhound. It is also seen in Cocker Spaniels associated with taurine deficiency. It is believed to be less common in small and medium breed dogs. We suspect that cases are underreported because animals are typically treated symptomatically, and diagnostic testing and treatment can be complex and costly to owners. FDA has observed a reporting bias for breeds like Golden Retrievers due to breed-specific social media groups and activities that have raised awareness of the issue in these communities and urged owners and vets to submit reports to FDA. Because the occurrence of different diseases in dogs and cats is not routinely tracked and there is no widespread surveillance system like the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have for human health, we do not have a measure of the typical rate of occurrence of disease apart from what is reported to the FDA.

Industry

Another puzzling aspect of the recent spike in DCM cases is that they have occurred just in the last few years. The FDA is working with the pet food industry to better understand whether changes in ingredients, ingredient sourcing, processing or formulation may have contributed to the development of DCM.”

I just don’t know what to conclude!

I am not used to/able to read reports and draw real conclusions and stuff as I am totally unscientific and haven’t even studied at degree level so this is all very complicated.

Also made the connection this week between my acid reflux and chocolate so my own diet is due for scrutiny and an overhaul too 😂