Strong Disagreements with DP Regarding Training

[Bornin1989]

Hi all,

I'm a long time lurker, and have been considering writing this thread for a long time now, but I've been pushed to my wit's end.

My partner and I got two puppies just before the start of lockdown (we're in the UK). We discussed beforehand about training strategies and it became apparent we were a bit different in terms of what style we would use (I am pretty much 99% reward based training and 1% "punishment" in the form of a sharp "No!" if things get too much or too boisterous). My partner is against reward based training, at least with food, and is very much "I AM TOP DOG - MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY", but this was totally downplayed at the time. In our discussions pre-puppy we said that we would go for the reward based more and keep punishment to a minimium. I also said to him that if he ever, ever rubs the dogs nose in its business (something he said he saw as a good strategy for teaching a dog not to pee or poo inside), then I would leave him. Thankfully he hasn't done that... but he didn't handle it well at all (I'll go into it in a mo).

I booked dog obedience sessions with our local Dogs Trust, and we managed to attend the introductory session before the lockdown properly started. My partner came out of the introductory session feeling happy and confident that positive rewards actually work and started to "see the light". Now, due to restrictions, we have not been able to attend any of the actual training sessions and our puppies are now 7 months old. One of them has a more nervous disposition and more separation anxiety than the other, which seems to be getting a little worse.

Anyway, if I had known what my partner was REALLY like with dogs (I only ever had reference when we have looked after other people's dogs, he was always lovely, kind and gentle with them), I would NEVER have agreed to getting the puppies.

As an exampe, if the dogs don't do as they're told, they are dragged by their scruff, yelping, to their bed. They both get yelled at, they get yanked HARD on the lead if they aren't walking to heel. Another annoying thing is that my partner thinks that they should be off lead as much as possible despite there being various issues with that (cyclists, pedestrians, other dogs that might be nervous). He once let them out of the car into a CAR PARK in the city with no leads on - I went nuts and he told me the dogs need to be trusted... they were about 4 months old and god knows what they would have done if they saw a pigeon or something the other side of the car park....

He criticises other dog walkers for having their dogs on the leads if the dog is nervous - now I agree that it's often better to have dogs loose to reduce anxiety, but some dogs are on leads and need to be kept separate from loose ones for good reason, they could be rescues, on heat or whatever reason that they do not need to justify to my DP.

Any time I try to interject with his training style, I'm told "well I've had dogs all my life, I know what I'm doing". I get completely shut down: "I don't want an argument about this!" (to my reply of "I'm not trying to argue, I just want you to listen to what I've got to say"... then follows the argument...").

It's true, I've only had one dog myself, but I spent months and months researching about training and what to do and what not to do, as well as attending puppy classes with that particular dog. I can get the dogs to do my command by having small treats in my hand, but I've been told we're "not allowed to use treats anymore" because "they won't do as they're told if you don't have treats". I can also command them to relatively good success without the treats.

My nervous pup is getting more nervous when he's around, and I get told off if I don't act "harsh enough" (e.g. yesterday we were keeping the dogs outside as an excercise in separation and I was gently holding nervous dog's head out of the way of the door whilst I went to shut it and I happened to say calmly "come on, stop pushing me, it's OK" and was told I need to YELL at him to get him to do what I want... I wasn't even trying to command him, I was trying to act calmly for him. I'm expected to be yelling and grabbing and "putting the dog in his place," which 1. I have refused to do, and 2. I would absolutely hate myself to the core if I did that and 3. it's fucking embarassing if anyone sees, I look like an animal abuser!

Whenever I have looked at "How to stop X behaviour" it's generally about being calm, ignoring undesireable behaviour, rewarding good behaviour, giving lots of attention and stimulation etc. Whenever I've shown him the multiple, multiple websites and advice regarding rewarding behaviour being good for the dogs and building their confidence through play and calm interactions, he claims he just knows best. Even when the websites CLEARLY state "DO NOT GRAB/INTIMIDATE YOUR DOG, IT WILL MAKE THE BEHAVIOUR WORSE".

The only time he has listened is when I called the Dogs Trust trainer in an absolute panic because after the dog pooed inside, I saw him grabbing him by the scruff, "showing" him the poo - not rubbing his nose in it and therefore still sticking to my zero tolerance rule. This caused yelping and fearfulness in the dog, but according to him, he's "Just playing up and being dramatic". The trainer talked us through what the best options are for stopping him from pooing inside - which he accepted and the behaviour stopped.

I feel like I've failed as an owner, I feel I have no voice or power in how these dogs are treated outside of the way I treat them (with love, patience, compassion, calmness), and I am incredibly disturbed by my DP's transformation from what I've seen with other people's dogs as a massive dog lover to some kind of dominance fiend.

Do we know when puppy classes will open again? I'm hoping someone with more authority than me can show him how much damage he's doing. I need my DP training ASAP.

Sorry for the stream of consciousness here, I'm in a highly anxious state, I'm supposed to be working from home but needed to get this off my chest so I can concentrate. Suggestions welcome.

[Soubriquet]

Sorry but he sounds worse and worse

He refuses to see its him that’s fucking the dogs up

[vanillandhoney]

OP - I mean this nicely, are you safe around him?

[pigsDOfly]

The dog is 'crying for his mummy'.

What the hell does that mean?

He's probably right though, if a puppy is being hurt or is fearful, it will cry for it's 'mummy' or at least for someone to protect it.

You got these puppies just before lockdown. They're babies and he's hurting them and scaring them.

I'd have been gone like a shot in your shoes OP. It would have broken my heart if my dog had cried like that when she was a puppy.

I couldn't live with someone with this sort of mindset, someone who thinks it's acceptable to hurt a baby animal, or an adult animal come to that, and make it cry.

[Bigpaintinglittlepainting]

Wow he sounds like a prince among men I think this has shown you who he actually is. Someone you don’t really like.

[PhantomErik]

I have littermates.

Training took time & both were/are better at different things & they have different personalities (like you would expect with siblings) but they are a joy & love each other & us a lot! As do we!

They're 12.5 years now.

OP I couldn't stay with someone like you DP & I would never trust his judgement about how to raise children etc & I would worry about how he treats the dogs when you're not around.

[Bornin1989]

"OP - I mean this nicely, are you safe around him?"

I genuinely am safe, if a little shaken by our last argument. He has never acted like this around me before, around pets, animals, children... it's like now he owns a puppy, he OWNS it rather than it being a companion.

I am honestly shocked and disgusted by this behaviour, I've never seen any signs to indicate he would behave like this, other than that red flag I thought I'd nipped in the bud regarding rubbing noses in poo.

He's insisting he's doing the grabbing gently, and "it's natural because the mum dogs do it" but I can't see how a dog yelping is gentle and I did point out that mum dogs don't have the ability to give commands or treats and a human dog relatioship is different to a dog-dog one. And when he said "crying for his mummy", he meant the dog was crying for me. The dog does often look at me when he's being shouted at, and apparently that's because I'm trying to undermine his authority, but I have no idea why the dog looks at me when he gets shouted at by my partner - maybe for reassurance?

Anyway, the dogs are no longer going to be subject to physical abuse, the Dogs Trust have replied and I'll be speaking to them tomorrow about this. They sound very (rightly) concerned. And I will not hesitate to leave with the dogs if there's even a whiff of it happening again.

I just feel so sad and shaken at all of this... I tried to say about how he was being stubborn etc. I even pointed out that science moves on, trainers adapt techniques etc. but these new techniques are all apparently too seated in emotion and I'm too emotional about it and he's just right (apparently I've never respected his training methods and never once listened to him about them - well no shit if you're doing horrible things). This seems to be all about his pride and not what is best for the dogs.

[MsAdorabelleDearheartVonLipwig]

The dog is crying for its mummy?

Is he fucking thick?

It’s crying because he’s hurting it. Dogs learn in context. If they’re hurt they cry out. Like we do. So now that dog has learnt that he will hurt it. Lesson learned.

I’m so sorry you’re having to go through all this. Discovering that your partner is an abusive arsehole must be awful. You’ll be so much happier when you’ve left though. Imagine how free you and your dogs will be.

I’d like to see him tell my dog trainer that rewards don’t work and to use punishment. After she’d finished tearing him a new arsehole he’d never touch a dog again. You’re not in Suffolk by any chance are you? I can highly recommend her.

[Bornin1989]

@MsAdorabelle

"I’d like to see him tell my dog trainer that rewards don’t work and to use punishment. After she’d finished tearing him a new arsehole he’d never touch a dog again. You’re not in Suffolk by any chance are you? I can highly recommend her."

The two trainers I have spoken to about this have been amazing - but he's refused to speak to them. He has, however, taken on board what one of them told me that I relayed to him, which is why I think there might be hope with actually sitting him down with someone qualified. He did bring up the fact I've only had one dog and that was for a short amount of time and so I "know nothing" - he doesn't believe the literal years of research I did before then (because all I wanted was a dog at the time and I became obsessed with how I was going to deal with it when I eventually got a dog) - he just thinks I'm some soft emotional nincompoop. He's had at least 12 dogs "and they all turned out fine" but that's because he didn't physically abuse them because they all came ready-trained! He told me he's never grabbed a dog before these, but he has seen his parents act like that towards dogs and he believes that's correct (as I've mentioned before, they severely neglected him and his sister as kids, and so are surely no reference to base how to care for a living thing on?!).

It is horrible to find out a much loved person who you've began to build a life with is an abuser, as you say, 6 years and a property together... hence my hope in the dog trainer. I really do hope she'll rip him a new one. Thankfully he's not a mysogynist so will listen to a woman - again, I thought he was a genuinely lovely person unti all of this!

[LilBlackLab]

just out of interest op, which breed of dog do you have?

[00100001]

I repeat.

Ditch the DP.

[ButteryPuffin]

Look. You've said he dismisses your view because he doesn't think all the years I've spent researching online what's best count for anything

BUT he's seen you get the dog to come and lie down quietly after he'd said you had "no control" over the dog. So right in front of his eyes, you showed him he was wrong. Yet he still doesn't accept it, does he?

I'm afraid that's because he doesn't want to. He is very invested in being right about this, to the point where there is now no possible compromise. I don't think the trainer will convince him because I don't think anything will now.

I am sorry that this means the life you planned is wrecked. I can see that's devastating. It's been distressing enough just to read about it, and I'm a total stranger on the internet who isn't even a dog person. But I can't see how you could ever trust him fully now, knowing what he's capable of. And I mean I'm terms of his hostility and lack of respect for you, as well as his abuse of the dogs.

Who could you go and stay with? You and the dogs need to leave until he is made to.

[sunshinesheila]

I would not be as to stay with him. Me and the dogs would be out of there. Or him of its your house

He is abusive to you. I bet that this is not the only thing you get totally shut down and gaslighted on . He is disrespectful to you and the dogs. You are beneath him and he is in charge.... a dangerous position you are in. Be careful and make plans to leave would be my plan.

[vanillandhoney]

Anyway, the dogs are no longer going to be subject to physical abuse, the Dogs Trust have replied and I'll be speaking to them tomorrow about this. They sound very (rightly) concerned. And I will not hesitate to leave with the dogs if there's even a whiff of it happening again.

I think you'll find the Dogs Trust will probably take the dogs off you and ban either of you from rescuing dogs from then again.

[Veterinari]

His totally inability to admit he may be wrong or to see his own hypocrisy would be the last limit for me.

He admits his own parents were abusive yet is choosing their dog training methods - will he be following their parenting techniques too?

In addition he's dismissed advice from the professional trainer you previously had and dismissed your thoughts opinions and research solely on the basis that 'his abusive parents must be right'. he's refused to speak to at least one trainer that you've arranged. I don't hold out much hope for him paying attention to the next one. He's too entrenched.

I honestly think he has deep seated issues and either a total inability to think critically or a need to cling to his own beliefs at the expense of his relationship and the wellbeing of the dogs. None of that is attractive.

[Sunnydayshereatlast]

Ddogs aside op have you decided to leave the abusive bastard? No man of his nature would be laying a hand on me under any circumstances...

[PollyPolson]

@vanillandhoney

Anyway, the dogs are no longer going to be subject to physical abuse, the Dogs Trust have replied and I'll be speaking to them tomorrow about this. They sound very (rightly) concerned. And I will not hesitate to leave with the dogs if there's even a whiff of it happening again.

I think you'll find the Dogs Trust will probably take the dogs off you and ban either of you from rescuing dogs from then again.

How does that help the OP or the situation?

They will not ban HER from owning dogs and suggesting so could affect her decision to speak to the Dogs Trust.

[PollyPolson]

It is the best decision she has made all through this thread. Talk to the professionals who can see the sitution in rl and give appropriate support and guidance

[ButteryPuffin]

I would work out your plan for what you're going to do tomorrow when they tell you you can't keep the dogs under these conditions. If they say you alone can keep them without your partner being involved, you will need to be ready either to go somewhere else with them, or tell him he has to leave and get police involved if needs be. If that's the choice, are you going to keep the dogs and ditch him, or let Dogs Trust take them away and stay with this guy?

[vanillandhoney]

They will not ban HER from owning dogs and suggesting so could affect her decision to speak to the Dogs Trust.

Of course they could. She's equally as responsible for the dogs' welfare as her DP. They're not going to hear that their dogs are being abused and let the people responsible rehome more dogs.

OP's best bet is to leave her partner and take the dogs with her as it's highly unlikely this man will change his ways. He thinks it's okay to yank puppies around by their necks, pick them up by their scruff until they scream, and shout and bellow at them.

While OP hasn't actively partaken in the behaviour she's stood by and let it happen. Yes, Dogs Trust may take a nice view and say she can keep the dogs if she gets rid of her partner but equally they may come down on the dogs' side and take them off her so they can live in a non-violent home.

[PollyPolson]

@ButteryPuffin

I would work out your plan for what you're going to do tomorrow when they tell you you can't keep the dogs under these conditions. If they say you alone can keep them without your partner being involved, you will need to be ready either to go somewhere else with them, or tell him he has to leave and get police involved if needs be. If that's the choice, are you going to keep the dogs and ditch him, or let Dogs Trust take them away and stay with this guy?

It is highly unlikely the Dogs Trust will force that decision tomorrow. If the dogs are not harmed or injured. More likely they will talk to both parties and this may be all that is needed to explain the training methods to the OP's partner.

I dont even think the Dogs Trust has the power to seize dogs

[PollyPolson]

@vanillandhoney

They will not ban HER from owning dogs and suggesting so could affect her decision to speak to the Dogs Trust.

Of course they could. She's equally as responsible for the dogs' welfare as her DP. They're not going to hear that their dogs are being abused and let the people responsible rehome more dogs.

OP's best bet is to leave her partner and take the dogs with her as it's highly unlikely this man will change his ways. He thinks it's okay to yank puppies around by their necks, pick them up by their scruff until they scream, and shout and bellow at them.

While OP hasn't actively partaken in the behaviour she's stood by and let it happen. Yes, Dogs Trust may take a nice view and say she can keep the dogs if she gets rid of her partner but equally they may come down on the dogs' side and take them off her so they can live in a non-violent home.

What miraclous legal rights does aDog charity have over us then Vanillandhoney?

Banning of dog ownership can only be done through the courts. The RSPCA would not even remove the dogs in this situation unless there was physical damage and the cause of that can be proven to be by the owner.

[NoBunnyHere]

I think it's been forgotten that these are bought dogs, not rehomed ones.

[Honeyroar]

Of course they’re not going to take the dogs off her. She’s approaching them for help and advice because she is worried and cares about the dogs. Plus she sounds ready to leave over this. They’re more likely to help her and back up her feelings that he is wrong. They might advise that the dogs are rehomed if she stays, but they are not going to screech round and take the dogs.

I hope you do leave and stay with the dog’s. He doesn’t respect or deserve you.

[vanillandhoney]

Banning of dog ownership can only be done through the courts.

I didn't say they'd ban her from ever owning a dog again. Please read what I said before telling me all about the law.

I said they would possibly ban her from rehoming a dog from them. Not the same as banning her from owning a dog at all.

They are bought dogs but most dog charities have an obligation to keep dogs safe. While they may not seize the dogs, they could easily report OP and/or her partner to the relevant authorities. Yes, they may not be interested but it could give OP the kick up the bum she needs to get rid of her abusive partner.

[TheDogsMother]

I'm afraid this kind of behaviour to animals would be enough for me to end the relationship. However much he thinks he 'knows' about dog training no decent human being should frighten and hurt these defenceless animals. Even aside from this the way he is shutting you down despite the research you've done and the evidence you can produce. Its cruel to the dogs and disrespectful to you.