Strong Disagreements with DP Regarding Training

[Bornin1989]

Hi all,

I'm a long time lurker, and have been considering writing this thread for a long time now, but I've been pushed to my wit's end.

My partner and I got two puppies just before the start of lockdown (we're in the UK). We discussed beforehand about training strategies and it became apparent we were a bit different in terms of what style we would use (I am pretty much 99% reward based training and 1% "punishment" in the form of a sharp "No!" if things get too much or too boisterous). My partner is against reward based training, at least with food, and is very much "I AM TOP DOG - MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY", but this was totally downplayed at the time. In our discussions pre-puppy we said that we would go for the reward based more and keep punishment to a minimium. I also said to him that if he ever, ever rubs the dogs nose in its business (something he said he saw as a good strategy for teaching a dog not to pee or poo inside), then I would leave him. Thankfully he hasn't done that... but he didn't handle it well at all (I'll go into it in a mo).

I booked dog obedience sessions with our local Dogs Trust, and we managed to attend the introductory session before the lockdown properly started. My partner came out of the introductory session feeling happy and confident that positive rewards actually work and started to "see the light". Now, due to restrictions, we have not been able to attend any of the actual training sessions and our puppies are now 7 months old. One of them has a more nervous disposition and more separation anxiety than the other, which seems to be getting a little worse.

Anyway, if I had known what my partner was REALLY like with dogs (I only ever had reference when we have looked after other people's dogs, he was always lovely, kind and gentle with them), I would NEVER have agreed to getting the puppies.

As an exampe, if the dogs don't do as they're told, they are dragged by their scruff, yelping, to their bed. They both get yelled at, they get yanked HARD on the lead if they aren't walking to heel. Another annoying thing is that my partner thinks that they should be off lead as much as possible despite there being various issues with that (cyclists, pedestrians, other dogs that might be nervous). He once let them out of the car into a CAR PARK in the city with no leads on - I went nuts and he told me the dogs need to be trusted... they were about 4 months old and god knows what they would have done if they saw a pigeon or something the other side of the car park....

He criticises other dog walkers for having their dogs on the leads if the dog is nervous - now I agree that it's often better to have dogs loose to reduce anxiety, but some dogs are on leads and need to be kept separate from loose ones for good reason, they could be rescues, on heat or whatever reason that they do not need to justify to my DP.

Any time I try to interject with his training style, I'm told "well I've had dogs all my life, I know what I'm doing". I get completely shut down: "I don't want an argument about this!" (to my reply of "I'm not trying to argue, I just want you to listen to what I've got to say"... then follows the argument...").

It's true, I've only had one dog myself, but I spent months and months researching about training and what to do and what not to do, as well as attending puppy classes with that particular dog. I can get the dogs to do my command by having small treats in my hand, but I've been told we're "not allowed to use treats anymore" because "they won't do as they're told if you don't have treats". I can also command them to relatively good success without the treats.

My nervous pup is getting more nervous when he's around, and I get told off if I don't act "harsh enough" (e.g. yesterday we were keeping the dogs outside as an excercise in separation and I was gently holding nervous dog's head out of the way of the door whilst I went to shut it and I happened to say calmly "come on, stop pushing me, it's OK" and was told I need to YELL at him to get him to do what I want... I wasn't even trying to command him, I was trying to act calmly for him. I'm expected to be yelling and grabbing and "putting the dog in his place," which 1. I have refused to do, and 2. I would absolutely hate myself to the core if I did that and 3. it's fucking embarassing if anyone sees, I look like an animal abuser!

Whenever I have looked at "How to stop X behaviour" it's generally about being calm, ignoring undesireable behaviour, rewarding good behaviour, giving lots of attention and stimulation etc. Whenever I've shown him the multiple, multiple websites and advice regarding rewarding behaviour being good for the dogs and building their confidence through play and calm interactions, he claims he just knows best. Even when the websites CLEARLY state "DO NOT GRAB/INTIMIDATE YOUR DOG, IT WILL MAKE THE BEHAVIOUR WORSE".

The only time he has listened is when I called the Dogs Trust trainer in an absolute panic because after the dog pooed inside, I saw him grabbing him by the scruff, "showing" him the poo - not rubbing his nose in it and therefore still sticking to my zero tolerance rule. This caused yelping and fearfulness in the dog, but according to him, he's "Just playing up and being dramatic". The trainer talked us through what the best options are for stopping him from pooing inside - which he accepted and the behaviour stopped.

I feel like I've failed as an owner, I feel I have no voice or power in how these dogs are treated outside of the way I treat them (with love, patience, compassion, calmness), and I am incredibly disturbed by my DP's transformation from what I've seen with other people's dogs as a massive dog lover to some kind of dominance fiend.

Do we know when puppy classes will open again? I'm hoping someone with more authority than me can show him how much damage he's doing. I need my DP training ASAP.

Sorry for the stream of consciousness here, I'm in a highly anxious state, I'm supposed to be working from home but needed to get this off my chest so I can concentrate. Suggestions welcome.

[romdowa]

Your oh is abusing those dogs , as are you by failing to protect them. Please rehome them to people who wont brutalize and manhandled the poor things.
Personally I also would never have children with him, imagine how he would treat children. What an awful man.

[Bornin1989]

@ihaventgottimeforthis

If the puppy classes are starting up again, that is a bit of a light of hope - he just doesn't believe reward based training works, but I do think if he sees it, it would be preferable. He "doesn't want to grab them" but he thinks it's "necessary" to control the fearful dog's "dominance". If he genuinely thought he was doing damage, he would stop, but he thinks I'm a big soft person that doesn't know what I'm talking about - hence the belief that if we get shown the training from a trainer who has experience with hundreds of dogs then he would change.

He is happy to leave the dogs in my control. Through me, they have learned to sit, lie down, get in their bed, paw, spin... all reward based. He was also keen on clicker training, but he failed to grasp the concept of it.

I have heard of littermate syndrome, yes, and we do a lot of separation of the two dogs - I tend to handle the nervous one and he goes out with the confident one. They are comfortable being apart from one another, it's usually when they're apart from us but they can still hear us that there are problems (I deal with this by filling a kong for them to occupy themselves whilst working in a different room with the door closed, he deals with it by responding to whining with going in and grabbing and putting them in their bed).

We have had pet rats in the past, and he was so gentle and kind with them, I just don't know where this monster has come from. As I said, we have dog sat for other people's dogs too and he's always been lovely, kind and calm with them, so there were no real red flags before we got puppies other than the fact he said he thought it was OK to rub a dogs nose in its business - I put my foot down there, but I didn't realise he would be into the scruff grabbing.

I will rehome them if the dog trainer can't convince him he's completely wrong. But that will cause a big enough rift to damage the relationship, so I'm wondering if just leaving with the dogs is a better course of action.

[sillysmiles]

You bought the dogs.
You recognise what he is doing is wrong.
You recognise his behaviour is abusive to the dogs.
He disrespects you and will not listen.
He is gaslighting you into believing you don't know anything.

He has shown you who he really is. Ask yourself, after seeing what he is like, could you really build a future with this person. If he is like this with pups, what would he be like with children? Why would he listen to your intuition with children when he wont with dogs.

You know it's wrong. Now you need to act. Tell him this has fundamental changed how you view him and your relationship and you no longer want to be with him.
It really is that simple. Everything else is just logistics.

[Bornin1989]

@parkandride

"Why does he even want dogs when he seems to hate them".

He doesn't hate them - he just can't see his behaviour is harmful - I'm not trying to back him up here though. He's responding to their behaviour in a hateful way, but in his eyes it's normal and the right thing to do. When the dogs are behaving, he treats them well, but it flips if they are "disobedient". I just can't see how he can bring himself to grab a dog, even if I was taught by a dog trainer to do that, I couldn't bring myself to do it!

No amount of case studies or websites, even "official" ones like PetMD, will convince him. He won't listen to me read them to him, and his dyslexia is so bad that he can barely read them himself.

[NoBunnyHere]

There is no evidence for littermate syndrome over and above the puppies just not getting the right level of attention when there is two of them.

It may exist in some form and go on to be proved - but is probably a red herring in many cases of problems with two puppies raised together.

[icedaisy]

Take the advice given OP.

This is abuse.

Abuse of the dogs and of you.

Out of interest do you also have different views on parenting and how a child should be disciplined?

This man is showing is true colours, he is violent. Leave and take the dogs with you.

[Astella22]

I just couldn’t watch anyone abuse these poor babies. It’s truly disgusting. Really shows who he is deep down. You need to ask yourself if this is the type of person who you want to go through life with. Please rehome as it looks like it’s the only chance they have to be happy in their short life.

[Veterinari]

He's wrong. And arrogant - what's his basis for thinking he knows better than animal behaviourists, vets and dog welfare experts?

Pack theory was dismissed in the 1970s and dominance has no place in dog training. He is abusive. If you have children will he beat them to ensure he's respected as a father? It's the same principle. Applied behaviour analysis and learning theory are universally applicable regardless of species. Anthropomorphism has nothing to do with it.

Get him a copy of John BRADSHAW's 'in defence of dogs'

Some useful research below

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/823427v1.full

https://www.apbc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/APBC-Advice-9-Training-Your-Dog.pdf

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0168159117302095

[PollyPolson]

Obviously you know that this situation can not continue.

Many people do still believe in the dominace theory Cesar Milan has a lot to answer too.

Trainers are working now so do get in touch with a positive reward based trainer - they will be very used to clients who want to dominant their dogs and should have great ways to show them better methods to train their dogs.

Do not delay in dealing with this your puppies are having a hard time and this does need to change. If you partner is not happy to change then you need to think if you can live with this but at the very least you would have to rehome the dogs.

[Bornin1989]

@sillysmiles

Yes, I posted this to get the kick up the arse I needed to confront him properly, to confirm what I was thinking was right (gaslighting does funny things to your mind - I was gaslighted by my ex, but I thought this was a decent man). You saw what he said in response to me bringing it up...

If it happens again I'm leaving (with the dogs), it has changed the way I view him as you say. I knew everyone had different opinions about how you should and shouldn't treat a dog, but I thought physical manhandling was the obvious no-no in all but the very oldest schools of thought.

I have to say when the dogs are chilled out, he is very lovely with them, it's not all about dominance, but that doesn't make any of his behaviour forgivable.

[midnightstar66]

Don't you worry about the mindset and character of anyone who believes this is right in any shape of form though? Even if he believed in punishment and dominating then this isn't it, this is straight out abuse. Punishment would be to use time out for example. He is already low level a song you on the way he is belittling you over this when every piece of modern literature and video on the subject says you are right.

[NiceTwin]

Ditch the fella.
Failing that, rehome the dogs.
The fearful dog will only get worse and will need a lot of work from the rescue to make him rehomable.

[PollyPolson]

I dont know him and it is easy to jump to conclusions and consider he your partner is the devils son. However two puppies is a handful. Is he overwhelmed by the dogs, does he feel out of his depth and this is the only way he feels he can handle it?

It may be if he has the correct guidance and feels more able to cope that he can change. However I have no idea if this is the case.

[midnightstar66]

There is no evidence for littermate syndrome over and above the puppies just not getting the right level of attention when there is two of them.

It may exist in some form and go on to be proved - but is probably a red herring in many cases of problems with two puppies raised together.

Whether it's a syndrome or just lack of attention or individual training, the result, and the methods, training and attention levels needed to avoid it are the same.

[Bornin1989]

@Veterinari

"He's wrong. And arrogant - what's his basis for thinking he knows better than animal behaviourists, vets and dog welfare experts?"

His reasoning is that he grew up with dogs - his (neglectful) parents used to leave him in the whelping pen as a baby after their two dogs hounds had puppies. The dogs brought him up better than his own mum and dad did. He honestly thinks he's some kind of Tarzan of the dog world. He's also had dogs on and off his whole life, but adults, so they came ready trained and relatively obedient, so I don't think he's ever felt the need to grab a dog before we had puppies.

But he does seem to listen to another person telling him it's wrong if they are qualified, he doesn't think all the years I've spent researching online what's best count for anything - I guess you could agree as I personally hate people who are Google experts at things - but I am aware of what the sources of information I'm reading are and what is credible or not. But what do I know?!

[NoBunnyHere]

@midnightstar66

*There is no evidence for littermate syndrome over and above the puppies just not getting the right level of attention when there is two of them.

It may exist in some form and go on to be proved - but is probably a red herring in many cases of problems with two puppies raised together.*

Whether it's a syndrome or just lack of attention or individual training, the result, and the methods, training and attention levels needed to avoid it are the same.

Yeah I agree. I just struggle with the use of the term in situations like this as it makes it sound like the problems are inevitable and inherently to do with getting two dogs - like the owners were on a predestined path rather than it being "simply" a training issue.

[midnightstar66]

But all the stuff you are explaining to him comes from experts. Maybe show him videos from Zac George or Absolute dogs if he has no respect for it written down even if it's written by the experts he seems to respect in other settings (albeit temporarily)

[Bornin1989]

@PollyPolson

"It may be if he has the correct guidance and feels more able to cope that he can change. However I have no idea if this is the case."

I suspect it is to a degree. I think it's learned behaviour of some kind, from somewhere, as I said he had a neglectful childhood. I don't think he would think it was the right thing to do if he hadn't learned it from someone else.

I think he's going against a natural instinct to do it because he believes he is right. But regardless of his motives, the damage being done to the puppy is the same and it needs to stop.

Thank you all for your responses, I need to get back to working now, but my next steps today are:

1. Call the dog trainer, who he seemed to respect last time. I need her to tell him how damaging he is being.
2. Threaten to rehome the dogs if it happens again.
3. Go to the training sessions as soon as is possible.
4. If there is no change - rehome the dogs.
5. Probably end up leaving anyway as I don't think the relationship will survive the hurt on both sides.

[katmarie]

Honestly op, could you really bring yourself to have sex with someone who considers you emotionally unstable and values your opinion so little? For that reason alone I would be taking the dogs and leaving.

[TARSCOUT]

You are just making excuse after excuse. I don't care what you decide to do for yourself but by keeping these dogs now you are as bad as him. I have no sympathy, get those dogs rehomed. You asay you are trying to change things but all you are doing is prolonging the abuse.

[Bornin1989]

@NoBunnyHere

"Yeah I agree. I just struggle with the use of the term in situations like this as it makes it sound like the problems are inevitable and inherently to do with getting two dogs - like the owners were on a predestined path rather than it being "simply" a training issue."

The dogs have shown no signs of the whole "littermate syndrome" thing, as I said, we've been careful to foster their independence from each other. It's independence from us that can be the problem sometimes (if they can still hear us).

[midnightstar66]

Also my name is on the waiting lists for dogs trust classes and I've had no word yet, they are doing 1:1 zoom classes though. I declined as I mainly wanted the classes for socialisation/group purposes rather than training.

[Bornin1989]

@NoBunnyHere

Sorry, that sounded like I was arguing with you - I was agreeing. When I'm emotional and stressed my ability to write coherently gets pretty diminished...!

[Sunnydayshereatlast]

He sounds like my friend's exh. I reported him to Dog's Trust - where they got ddog from.
They came and took her back the next day.. They never knew it was me who reported him.
If you were my friend I would report him - and you - if you don't end this today.
One day very soon he will be bitten. Imagine his reaction op.
Act now.
If you are fearful of him think how those poor ddog's are feeling.

[ItsLeviooosar]

Don't re home the dogs, leave him and take both. You'll be happier