Strong Disagreements with DP Regarding Training

[Bornin1989]

Hi all,

I'm a long time lurker, and have been considering writing this thread for a long time now, but I've been pushed to my wit's end.

My partner and I got two puppies just before the start of lockdown (we're in the UK). We discussed beforehand about training strategies and it became apparent we were a bit different in terms of what style we would use (I am pretty much 99% reward based training and 1% "punishment" in the form of a sharp "No!" if things get too much or too boisterous). My partner is against reward based training, at least with food, and is very much "I AM TOP DOG - MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY", but this was totally downplayed at the time. In our discussions pre-puppy we said that we would go for the reward based more and keep punishment to a minimium. I also said to him that if he ever, ever rubs the dogs nose in its business (something he said he saw as a good strategy for teaching a dog not to pee or poo inside), then I would leave him. Thankfully he hasn't done that... but he didn't handle it well at all (I'll go into it in a mo).

I booked dog obedience sessions with our local Dogs Trust, and we managed to attend the introductory session before the lockdown properly started. My partner came out of the introductory session feeling happy and confident that positive rewards actually work and started to "see the light". Now, due to restrictions, we have not been able to attend any of the actual training sessions and our puppies are now 7 months old. One of them has a more nervous disposition and more separation anxiety than the other, which seems to be getting a little worse.

Anyway, if I had known what my partner was REALLY like with dogs (I only ever had reference when we have looked after other people's dogs, he was always lovely, kind and gentle with them), I would NEVER have agreed to getting the puppies.

As an exampe, if the dogs don't do as they're told, they are dragged by their scruff, yelping, to their bed. They both get yelled at, they get yanked HARD on the lead if they aren't walking to heel. Another annoying thing is that my partner thinks that they should be off lead as much as possible despite there being various issues with that (cyclists, pedestrians, other dogs that might be nervous). He once let them out of the car into a CAR PARK in the city with no leads on - I went nuts and he told me the dogs need to be trusted... they were about 4 months old and god knows what they would have done if they saw a pigeon or something the other side of the car park....

He criticises other dog walkers for having their dogs on the leads if the dog is nervous - now I agree that it's often better to have dogs loose to reduce anxiety, but some dogs are on leads and need to be kept separate from loose ones for good reason, they could be rescues, on heat or whatever reason that they do not need to justify to my DP.

Any time I try to interject with his training style, I'm told "well I've had dogs all my life, I know what I'm doing". I get completely shut down: "I don't want an argument about this!" (to my reply of "I'm not trying to argue, I just want you to listen to what I've got to say"... then follows the argument...").

It's true, I've only had one dog myself, but I spent months and months researching about training and what to do and what not to do, as well as attending puppy classes with that particular dog. I can get the dogs to do my command by having small treats in my hand, but I've been told we're "not allowed to use treats anymore" because "they won't do as they're told if you don't have treats". I can also command them to relatively good success without the treats.

My nervous pup is getting more nervous when he's around, and I get told off if I don't act "harsh enough" (e.g. yesterday we were keeping the dogs outside as an excercise in separation and I was gently holding nervous dog's head out of the way of the door whilst I went to shut it and I happened to say calmly "come on, stop pushing me, it's OK" and was told I need to YELL at him to get him to do what I want... I wasn't even trying to command him, I was trying to act calmly for him. I'm expected to be yelling and grabbing and "putting the dog in his place," which 1. I have refused to do, and 2. I would absolutely hate myself to the core if I did that and 3. it's fucking embarassing if anyone sees, I look like an animal abuser!

Whenever I have looked at "How to stop X behaviour" it's generally about being calm, ignoring undesireable behaviour, rewarding good behaviour, giving lots of attention and stimulation etc. Whenever I've shown him the multiple, multiple websites and advice regarding rewarding behaviour being good for the dogs and building their confidence through play and calm interactions, he claims he just knows best. Even when the websites CLEARLY state "DO NOT GRAB/INTIMIDATE YOUR DOG, IT WILL MAKE THE BEHAVIOUR WORSE".

The only time he has listened is when I called the Dogs Trust trainer in an absolute panic because after the dog pooed inside, I saw him grabbing him by the scruff, "showing" him the poo - not rubbing his nose in it and therefore still sticking to my zero tolerance rule. This caused yelping and fearfulness in the dog, but according to him, he's "Just playing up and being dramatic". The trainer talked us through what the best options are for stopping him from pooing inside - which he accepted and the behaviour stopped.

I feel like I've failed as an owner, I feel I have no voice or power in how these dogs are treated outside of the way I treat them (with love, patience, compassion, calmness), and I am incredibly disturbed by my DP's transformation from what I've seen with other people's dogs as a massive dog lover to some kind of dominance fiend.

Do we know when puppy classes will open again? I'm hoping someone with more authority than me can show him how much damage he's doing. I need my DP training ASAP.

Sorry for the stream of consciousness here, I'm in a highly anxious state, I'm supposed to be working from home but needed to get this off my chest so I can concentrate. Suggestions welcome.

[NoBunnyHere]

@Bornin1989 sounds great. I didn't mean to derail your thread and was actually trying to stop it being derailed as some others have been, by the OP being told they had made a terrible error getting two dogs, when their problem was actually something entirely different.

[NoBunnyHere]

[quote Bornin1989]@NoBunnyHere

Sorry, that sounded like I was arguing with you - I was agreeing. When I'm emotional and stressed my ability to write coherently gets pretty diminished...![/quote]
all good

[vanillandhoney]

OP, you have a duty to keep these dogs safe. You can't keep threatening that you're going to re-home them or leave - because every time you don't follow through, you give him more reason to behave the way he does. Why should he stop doing what he thinks is right, when you stand there and take it?

The longer you leave it, the worse it's going to get for those dogs. They are going to affected everyday by his behaviour - they're going to end up scared of men, of people touching them, of people stroking their heads - they could end up aggressive because they'll think when someone reaches over their head, they're going to get scruffed and it will hurt - so they'll end up growling and potentially biting to prevent that happening.

I highly suspect your nervous puppy is nervous because of his behaviour. Yes, it could be personality but even so, it won't be helped by having some huge man looming over it grabbing it by the neck, shouting, shoving it around and yanking it on the lead.

[JesusInTheCabbageVan]

This is sickening to read. I really hope you do rehome the dogs, and whatever you do don't have children with him.

[midnightstar66]

I agree the litter mate thing is a red herring in this case. The dogs are too young to be displaying signs anyway - and OP is aware of what's needed with 2 pups. Obviously training 2 dogs totally separately is harder on your own though so is a consideration if OP does decide to leave which is why I mentioned it. Having said that my sister has done it mainly alone (only 16 year old dn for help) and after 18 long months of hard work she has 2 exemplary siblings (though she's not taken her eye off the ball yet)

[Itsjustabitofbanter]

What if he was behaving like this to your children op? Screaming, scruffing, yanking? Would you leave him then?

[picklemewalnuts]

It's too late I think- he has shown he doesn't respect you at all.

You can't trust him to have future children with, as he could as easily turn with them as he did with the dogs.

I think you need to write him a letter.
Tell him you feel deceived by how he said he would behave and how he is behaving, that he doesn't respect you at all, that you cannot stay with someone who thinks and behaves the way he does.
Tell him if he dismisses this as you being emotionally unstable then he is sealing the end of your marriage. That you are sorry, but he has refused to take you seriously so this is your last resort.

Seriously.

[NoBunnyHere]

I kind of get why someone who grew up with dogs thinks this is the right way. Back in the 90s it was still largely the Barbara Woodhouse way or no way at all. Dog training classes still had you pushing down the dogs bum for a sit, checking the lead for a heel and so on. Rubbing noses in mess, or at least pointing and telling off, was still how many (most) people trained their dogs.

That bit I understand.

What I would find fundamentally a deal breaker, was discovering I was with someone who refused to learn and grow. Whose ideas on how things are, were so set in stone they would not consider they might be wrong. Whose opinion on how I felt about any joint project (especially living ones) was as low as you describe, OP. I genuinly could not imagine spending my life with someone who had shown me how rigid and unchanging they were.

Most people who actually ARE experts in any subject are those with the habits of reading, observing, reviewing, previous knowledge and revising it over and over again as they discover new things. No one becomes an expert in anything by relying on something they learned 20+ years ago. Especially canine behaviour which has gone through such a massive boom/spike in research in that time.

[Seeleyboo]

You can't leave him. You have built a life together. Then sorry OP, you're abusing these dogs together. He will do the same to children when they don't do as they're told.

[midnightstar66]

I had dogs in the 80's and so did most people I knew - many were working dogs so people were stricter although many pets too. Yes to pushing bums to sit and checking lead but none dragging by the scruff or screaming at an already worried dog. That was always abuse.

[Honeyroar]

I don’t see the point of rehoming the dogs and staying with him. If he knows his actions are really upsetting you yet he continues he is abusing you as well as the dogs. Is he going to be as argumentative over how your children are brought up/schooled etc. Splitting up is hard, especially when there’s property to be sold etc, but it’s not a reason to stay. I’d tell him, if he does it again, that you can’t stay with him if he does this anymore. It’s his final warning. Poor pups.

[NoBunnyHere]

There are still too many trainers working today that scruff by the neck. I just tested and it took me less than 5 seconds to find a official looking website condoning scruffing as a training method. Only last week I was talking to a behaviourist and she was describing how a lab was raised half off the ground for a couple of seconds on a slip lead as punishment, at a training class she went to about 8 years ago.

I don't think it's ok and don't condone - but it still happens a lot. I imagine all the new/unsure pet owners who learn from them and could weep.

[Ihaventgottimeforthis]

OP I think your plan looks good.
Hopefully the training will start up again soon, and the behaviourist can influence his approach.
It sounds like you've made a great start with the dogs - if he will accept turning the training responsibility over to you, and just concentrate on the bonding, then I believe you can turn this situation around.
Best of luck!
What kind of dogs are they?

[LuluBellaBlue]

Take the dogs and run for the hills!

[Hoggleludo]

I've fostered dogs. For over 10 years

I've fostered dogs who were abused. Not many posts make me shudder

I have a feeling your nervous don't won't ever recover. He will probably only get worse

This man shouldn't be near dogs. Leave and take the dogs. You should see a change of behaviour but I doubt the nervousness will ever go away now. He's damaged him for good.

[Hoggleludo]

Jesus

Your replies are more horrifying.

I'm shaking my head

You need to leave. Puppy classes won't make a damn difference.

[pigsDOfly]

I always think that you get a very good measure of someone by the way they treat the more helpless amount us, be that animals, children or other adults.

This man is showing you exactly what he is, an abuser.

Abusive behaviour doesn't generally manifest itself immediately in a relationship, it can take a number of years, which is probably why you haven't seen it before.

Now you have these helpless puppies and he's enjoying bullying them and making them fearful of him by hurting them and shouting at them. And he's gaslighting you when you show him how wrong he's being.

Do you imagine he would be any different if these small creatures weren't puppies, but children?

You've come on here asking for advice because you don't know what else to do. Stop making excuses for him and listen to the advice you've been given.

This situation will not improve, no matter who you get involved with training. He'll nod and agree with the trainer and then go back to abusing the dogs when then trainer has left and he has control over the dogs again.

If you're happy to build a life with this man, that's your decision to make, but those poor creatures have no choice but to stay and be abused; if they could make the decision they would leave and find a home with someone who won't turn them into either nervous wrecks or fear aggressive dogs.

They have no one to speak for them except you OP.

Do the decent, right thing. If you're not going to leave this man and take the dogs with you, get them rehomed.

[AnnPerkins]

I realise it's not the main issue here, but I just wanted to point out that puppy training has been allowed to recommence for weeks now; we started with two weeks 1-2-1 and since then have been to four weeks of group classes.

[tabulahrasa]

@midnightstar66

I had dogs in the 80's and so did most people I knew - many were working dogs so people were stricter although many pets too. Yes to pushing bums to sit and checking lead but none dragging by the scruff or screaming at an already worried dog. That was always abuse.

That’s what I was about to say...

Yep dog training used to involve a bit more manhandling and mild punishment, but there’s a huge difference between a quick tug on a lead and what you’re describing.

We weren’t all abusing our dogs until we saw an expert do otherwise, we were just using some less effective training methods.

The thing is, maybe you can change what he does with the dogs.

But, this is him showing you who he is and also that he has absolutely no respect for you.

If you fix this particular issue, he’ll just be hiding this side of himself until it comes out again...

[00100001]

Get rid of the dogs.


Or DP.



I'd choose to get rid of DP, sounds like he's a massive arsehole.

[sillysmiles]

I kinda feel like you need a hug! But you also need to woman up and protect yourself and the dogs and kick him out.
Leaving the dogs aside for a second he is gaslighting and dismissive of your opinions on dogs you paid for.
He is also violent when disobeyed.
Mind yourself. Protect yourself. Get you and the pups out.

Bear in mind, your pups haven't reached teenager stage yet and it's going to get worse.

[Lougle]

Your posts are really worrying @Bornin1989. Not just for your poor dogs, but for any children you might have.

My DH wasn't brought up around dogs and he can be a bit impatient (e.g. he's hot and bothered, then the dog huffs and puffs at him, so he says "go and lay down, you're too hot"), which I challenge him on - it only takes a second to give a gentle pat before saying 'lay down now'. But to be physical with the dogs? Not a chance.

I would be considering my relationship if I realised my values were so adrift from my partner's.

[Veterinari]

I am aware of what the sources of information I'm reading are and what is credible or not. But what do I know?!

I think you know plenty @Bornin1989

Trust your gut.

I'm even more baffled why if he was 'raised by dogs' he now sees fit to abuse them? Did they bite and savage him as a child? No thought not.

I'd be very concerned about his dismissive behaviour to you and awful treatment of these pups. Please don't have children with him.

Please do read 'in defence of dogs'

[Soubriquet]

It’s incredibly difficult to correct learned behaviour

These dogs are terrified of your partner and will therefore be more nervous.

You should either kick him out, walk out with the dogs or rehome them

[Bornin1989]

@sillysmiles

I'm in SO much need of a hug. Partner just came home to me crying on the bed because I'm so stressed. He asked me nicely if there was anything he could do, and I said, just please stop grabbing the dogs by the scruff of the neck.

Queue:
"YOURE TOO EMOTIONAL"
"I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING"
"YOU'RE GOING TO FUCK UP THE DOGS"
"THE [NERVOUS DOG] IS YOURS, YOU FUCKING TRAIN HIM"

I agreed that the nervous dog can be "mine" and all the training down to me - he said he promised never to grab the dogs again as I said if he does it, I'm taking them to be rehomed as it's abusive ("ITS NOT GRABBING, I DO IT SOFTLY" but the dog still yelps?!). I've also spoken to the dog trainer but she's furloughed so can't help, although we've agreed to go on a walk together - I've e-mailed the Dogs Trust to see if they can help ASAP. I've spelled it out fully for them exactly what has happened and hopefully either we can get them to teach my partner what he is doing is WRONG, or maybe someone will intervene and take the dogs out of our hands.

Apparently I'm fucking the dogs up by crying in front of them. I'm fucking the dogs up because they are no longer going to get grabbed.

I just need him to see that he is WRONG. He genuinely thinks he's doing the best for the dogs through this grabbing - he said to me that the yelping was the dog "Crying for his mummy".

I just can't believe it, heartbroken, emotionally drained from actually fighting my corner. I've told him he's stubborn, I gave him the guide dogs example, nothing.

Oh I think someone mentioned I keep doing empty threats - I've never threatened anything like removing myself or the dogs, other than if he rubbed the dogs nose in its poo/pee I would leave. Which he never did.

I will follow through, he has promised not to do it and he does keep his promises (even if he's being an absolute and utter cunt to me about it).