Cockapoos - pros and cons?

[punter]

Thinking of a second dog for 4 year old lab, any experiences of cockapoos? Tia.

YourFace if you have the KC names of both parents you can look up their health test results here on the KC site.

I posted a list of what health tests should have been done back on page one of this thread.

I'd also check whether the bitch has had any previous pedigree litters which were KC registered. The KC will not register more than four litters from a single bitch. It's not that uncommon for people to have four pedigree litters from a bitch then swap to crosses.

It's worth googling the phone numbers used in the advert to see if they've been advertising lots of other litters or adult dogs for sale as well. Also check if they're licensed with their local council and how many litters they must be breeding each year in order to need one. Most councils only require a license once a breeder is producing more than five litters a year, which is getting well into breeding purely for volume territory.

This is a great little list of questions you should be asking the breeder. They should be perfectly happy for answer them all and they should also thoroughly grill you to make sure you're a suitable fit for one of their puppies. Expect to be asked about your home, your lifestyle, what you feel you can offer a dog, why you picked that cross, why you chose that particular breeder, etc. Be suspicious if they're happy for you to turn up, hand over the cash, pick a puppy and take it away there and then.

The litter should be living full time in the home (not in an outbuilding or kennel) and the breeder should be doing lots with the puppies, not just the bare minimum of feeding, cleaning up after than and having the odd play with a toy. Have a look at the developmental stages prior to "8 weeks - a new home" on this page. There are lists of the sort of things the breeder should be doing during each.

If you have children it's always wise to do the first visit without them. If anything is iffy it's much easier to walk away if your kids haven't already fallen in love, which they inevitably will because puppies are adorable!!

That's amazingly helpful!

The mobile number doesn't return much but they do have a license. The local council require it for 4 or more litters a year.

The breeder lives in a pretty rural area. I am due to ring on Friday to check if dog is still available, so can ask probing questions then. Advert doesn't specify where the dogs are reared which is making me wonder if they are outside.

If they have a licence, they are breeding a fair amount. I say it regularly, but in the vast majority of cases, I think a breeding licence is a bad thing and would avoid.

Honestly though, the whole buying of puppies is an ever-worsening minefield, unless you are buying from someone who can prove their background through show or work credentials - and that is going to be a pedigree puppy, which no-one seems to want these days.

I don't envy you.

I agree with the above about licenses. The one time someone had one they went to great trouble of showing me it like it was something good and it was only afterwards having investigating it I realised you only had to have it if you were breeding so frequently.

Fortunately my senses had already kicked in by then with the number of dogs they owned and the amount of litters they had (two on the go at the same time) and the general state of the pups to run a mile away.

I see the perils of buying a fashionable dog have been well covered, I have on dog walks met at least one lady who spent £2000 on a labradoodle.

Can I just praise poodles, a breed that has suffered a bad hair day for a century, I have one after a life time of terrier crosses, she's a gem.

Can I just praise poodles, a breed that has suffered a bad hair day for a century, I have one after a life time of terrier crosses, she's a gem.

Have been pleased to meet up with three pedigree Poodle pups at puppy classes lately. Hopefully they are staging a come back.

Given the age old advice that you should never buy a crossbreed when you couldn't happily live with either of the breeds in its make-up, it is beyond me why people don't just choose the certainty of a Poodle from the three sizes available, from a breeder who health tests, and no doubt pay less for it too!

(If they need the street cred of a designer cross-breed, they could just lie ... no bugger would know the difference anyway LOL.)

To me licenced breeder equals puppy farmer.

What is a puppy farmer ? someone who puts profit over the welfare of the dogs.

There are licenced breeder who have hundreds of breeding bitches.
Really, why do they need so many litters, if it's not for cash? The country certainly doesn't need so many puppies, there are not enough homes for the dogs we already have.

And again, the chances of you obtaining a cockerpoo pup that has not come from a puppy farm are virtually nil, so if you are set on this type of dog you need to understand the industry you are supporting.

I've already got a truck load of street cred without needing a cockerpoodle to lend me some of his.

if you are set on this type of dog you need to understand the industry you are supporting

I do think this is vital to understand. It is not just a matter of if you are lucky enough to get a healthy puppy with a sound temperament (and many - the majority of? - puppy farmed dogs do not tick either of these boxes). You also have to accept that you are willing to subject the dogs that produced that puppy to a life of hell, because for most that is what it is. Anyone who buys just one puppy from this route is supporting the industry, plain and simple.

If you are not aware of the horrors, please educate yourself: www.puppylovecampaigns.org/

Many many of the puppies advertised through the likes of epupz, pets4homes, preloved, gumtree etc. may give a good impression of being reared in the home, but dealers and farmers are getting so clever, and so many of these are just sales fronts for bulk-shipped puppies, or a nice home hiding the horrors of what is in the barns outside.

You can try and protect yourself by googling phone numbers to see what range and number of litters people are advertising, but to be honest this advice has been around a while now and I expect they are getting wise to that too.

If you really truly can find a cross-bred litter from people you know that is bred and reared in the home, from dogs that have had all the appropriate DNA and BVA health tests (not just a 'vet check') then crack on, I have no more issue with that than anyone buying any other puppy, although the uncertainty around size, coat, temperament wouldn't be for me. There won't be many though.

How do you know for certain that the chances of it coming from a puppy farm are virtually nil? If that is 100% the case then I would be convinced not to get one. This thread, has massively put me off to be honest.

I would be happy to get a pedigree dog if I could be certain the kids would bond (my kids aren't tiny and unfortunately have opinions that I need to consider) with it and my husband's allergies won't be triggered. They've ruled out a lot of breeds for various reasons and the remaining few look iffy allergy wise or either need too much or too little exercise.

How do you know for certain that the chances of it coming from a puppy farm are virtually nil?

Buying from any source will only perpetuate the puppy farm market. The only way to guarantee not buying from a puppy farmer is to buy from a friend of your yours who is having a (single) litter from her family pet. You then know the dog, history, it's care and the owners.

Even this makes me feel uneasy though. I know a female cockerpoo pet owner who had one litter with a friend's cockerpoo male, kept one pup and sold the others. This is OK, but...

But, but. It perpetuates the market for the puppy farmers. The more desirable and fashionable these cross-breed dogs become, the more stable and profitable the market is for the puppy farms. So even buying from a guarenteed reputable seller will add to the cross-breed puppy farming problem we have nationally.

Apologies, I bore myself on these threads, but I just can't resist ...

Buying from any source will only perpetuate the puppy farm market. The only way to guarantee not buying from a puppy farmer is to buy from a friend of your yours who is having a (single) litter from her family pet.

Sorry, absolutely don't agree with that. Perhaps you mean the only way to guarantee it when buying a cross-bred puppy?

For me, I think it would possibly achieve that, but to be honest it is the knowledgeable breeders that we need to support, not the people who decide to have a litter from their pet to fund their next holiday.

Good breeders have high standards for their buyers rather than just selling to anyone who asks, offer a lifetime's support, health test, know their lines inside out, know how to assess temperament and match the right pup to the right home - on that basis, I guess they can be a bit scary, and no they won't take a million photos with teddy bears and flowers.

In honesty, many owners would find it entirely impossible to buy from a good breeder, because they don't offer a good enough home and good breeders have long waiting lists and can be very choosy.

YourFace - in response to your queries, I would perhaps offer the opinion that it is adults who need to choose a dog, not children, and surely children will love most puppies anyway - although obviously there is peer pressure around the fashionable breeds and crosses.

I'm glad that you are worried about the possibility of supporting a cruel industry. If you feel inclined to answer, what are your requirements, what have you ruled out, and why?

My eldest is 14 and whilst he is the loveliest boy in world, I have seen him bond more with some dogs that we have access to than others, I want him to have a stake in the decision making process and then take his share of responsibility after homing the dog. It's a big decision and life change and I want to get it right. There's no peer pressure for him re. Dog breeds, he'd be oblivious to all that, he barely registers clothing brands never mind dog breeds. He's been exposed to cockapoos and seems to gel.

My requirements are a dog that first and foremost can be tolerated by my husband's allergies. Requires 2 walks a day of approx 30-45 minutes each (I've considered a bichon frise but from what I've read they only need 30 mins exercise a day). Ideally easy to train. Loving and good with children. Nothing with a lock jaw. Small to the smaller side of medium. My mum had a schnauzer and I personally think it would be perfect but both sons are adamant they don't want one.

By the way - I work from home and am very active....!

I would say that with the usual proviso of a young puppy needing only minimal exercise and building it up as they grow, there should be no issue at all with a Bichon doing that exercise, and going for longer walks at the weekend - in fact, to me that seems the minimum exercise any dog would need.

Re. allergies, whatever you choose, you need to find a breeder who will be happy to let you spend a good amount of time with adult dogs to see if your husband reacts. Not all people react the same. It is also worth looking at a product called Petal Cleanse, which has been known to help.

I would also have said a Schnauzer, of any of the three sizes. What do they not like about them?

Others that are reputed to give less allergic reactions are likely to be the ones that don't moult - you could consider Westies (very popular with puppy farms, care needed), Border Terriers, Shih Tzu, Lhasa Apso, Tibetan Terrier. Obviously with all of these, there are grooming costs involved.

My nan had very small dogs all her life (terriers etc) and after her last one died my cousin took it upon herself to go and get her a cockapoo (it cost £500 of my nan's money, no checks were done and I have a strong feeling that it wasn't legit. This was all done without my knowledge so nothing could be done once I'd found out). My nan is in her 80's and really really struggled with him. He's very very energetic and requires a lot of exercise. He's very loving and very intelligent, but very stubborn. No matter how hard they try they cannot stop him chewing all the shoes and furniture. Well lo and behold my cousin very kindly took the dog off of my nans hands for her. I definitely think she got the dog for herself, on the pretext of getting it for my nan and getting her to pay for it. It's a great family dog if you have the time and the energy, in my experience though it's hard to train out of certain behaviours and definitely not an option for someone who can't or doesn't want to get out too much

I really would recommend having a look at toy or miniature poodles, depending on your size preference.

They're lovely, bright, active (but not overly so) and highly trainable little dogs. You're guaranteed to get the poodle coat type (which needs no more looking after than a cockapoo coat) and it's far easier to find a decent, responsible breeder of them than their crosses.

Perhaps you mean the only way to guarantee it when buying a cross-bred puppy?

That is precisely what I mean

As an aside, if allergies are concerned then it's also worth looking into dogs with extremely fine single coats who shed very little.

My DH has allergies and is absolutely fine with our whippets and every other whippet we've ever met.

If you can deal with the potential prey drive then whippets might be worth looking at as well. They're a nice size (and can fold themselves up incredibly small when they want to ), lovely low maintenance coat and would be fine that level of exercise providing they get the opportunity to really stretch their legs. They're sweet, gentle and so affectionate it's ridiculous. They have a real playful and mischievous streak, mine are endlessly entertaining and completely charm everyone they meet. In the house they're generally very chilled and spend most of their time draped artfully over the furniture but they're always up for a walk (unless it's pouring down), a play or some training. Training-wise they're never going to be as desperate to please as a truly handler dependent breed but they are intelligent and with the right motivation (usually food!!) they're more than trainable enough to achieve good manners both at home and out and about, or even have a crack at some trick training.

I've considered a bichon frise but from what I've read they only need 30 mins exercise a day
I would disagree with that - my brother has one - she can easily do 2 hour walks, but is happier with less if that's what's available.

But she always goes out twice a day, one long walk and shorter in the evening. And she's 8 years old!

Also, I'm allergic to some dogs, a shi-tzu I know will make my skin itch if she licks me (just on the specific area) but I've never had a problem with the bichon from her licks of fur. Grooming requirements would be the same as for a poodle. However, you'd need to be v careful as they are puppy farmed to a high degree.

Some lovely poodles here Some are slightly older, but that may be an advantage if your current dog is already 14.

Having bought a pup last year (KC cocker spaniel) and spending over a year looking and visiting several litters, I cannot emphasise enough how important it is not to take children with you to view litters.

I have four children (12, 11, 7, 2). The our dog is a member of the family and when our elderly dog died, of course the chikdrn were involved in the conversation about a new dog. But not the buying. And certainly not the early process of finding a breeder/litter.

We talked with the children about puppy verses older dog rescue.

We talked to the children about breeds and their needs.

The decision to buy a puppy cocker spaniel was definitely a family decision. Then we set expectations that it might take a long time to actually being a dog home.

But I did the searching. Because I am equipped with the knowledge needed to spot the signs of a puppy farmer. I can view a litter and not be "awww cute ickle puppy dogs".

All puppies are cute. You have to have an impossibly hard-hearted 14 year old to be able to see a litter of puppies and not be over-enthusiastic "I want one". But that's the view you need to take when seeing a litter.

Your first visit to see a litter is very little to do with the puppy and mostly to do with the breeder, the mother dog, the household and the tone of the family. It is not about "awww cute puppy".

I couldn't bear to have broken my eldests heart with the 3 visits to litters that I turned down. Yes, of course the puppies were adorable. The owners and conditions were led so though

I needs to maintain the detached stance when first seeing a litter. Having a child with me would not have allowed that.

Once I picked the breeder and litter though, that was when the children became involved again.

Excellent advice, FATEdestiny.