Puppy farm?

[fessmess]

Going to look at a puppy tomorrow after breeder put us off from last week (family illness) and now their advert on Pets4homes has changed. Two pups (11 weeks old) have disappeared from ad and now they're selling a different puppy 3 weeks younger! The photos of mum and dad are the same though. Would you be suspicious or is this normal?

"Legitimate people sell on that site as it can be an easy and sensible way to sell puppies."

Nope.
Easy yes, sensible no.

Why would you want a puppy from a 'large scale breeder'? How would that ever be a good idea? We are talking about a dog that will become part of your family.

I think it's unfair to pile on the OP as somehow "part of the problem". She smelled a rat, asked for advice, listened and changed her plans. So she's not 'creating the demand' for anything, is she?

I haven't seen the OP say that she's not going to buy a designer crossbreed, only that she's not going to buy this one. As there's really no such thing as a reputable breeder of cross breeds, then anyone who deliberately goes out to purchase one is part of the problem. As is anyone who wants 'teacup' or 'mini' versions of breeds that aren't recognised in such sizes, etc.

Can I add that the problem isn't confined to 'designer' dogs. It also applies to any breed which suddenly becomes popular, too fast for proper breeders to increase supply to match demand (if they even wanted to, most want to breed quality not quantity). Someone mentioned French Bulldogs upthread. It doesn't take too much thought to realise that if you suddenly notice a lot more of a breed around, then chances are a lot have been farmed. I have a dachshund, and my heart sank when I read a piece in the paper recently that they were rising in popularity- lots in adverts, quite a lot of 'celebs' with them. They're a breed which for both physical and temperamental reasons really must come from a good breeder.

Go with your gut feeling, make sure, you can see mum with her puppies at around 6/7 weeks. Ask questions, about mum, dad age, how many litters, temperament.... anyone who knows their dogs, will be able to talk about them for hours!

This is the most spectacular naivety which is exactly how puppy farms operate

At 6/7 weeks, puppies will be quite independent from their mum. They won't be suckling and they will be exploring their surroundings. Mum will be happy to let them do heir own thing.
There is absolutely zero way of telling whether the bitch with them is their mum, or the placid stunt bitch who gets a revolving door of farmed puppies dumped with her to give the thin veneer of respectability

Ask all the questions you want. They answers will be what you want to hear, and you've got no way of verifying. Anyone can talk for hours about dogs when they are trying to make a few grand from the process.

The real danger is that idiots think that these sort of easily-faked steps somehow mean they aren't getting farmed pups.
Idiots will think they've ticked theee boxes, asked their basic questions and got a legit puppy. The reality is that they have poured more money into the pockets of puppy farmers.

Puppy farmers go as far as renting a place out so you don't think dogs are farmed. They will bring puppies and a bitch that they will say is the mum. It bloody isn't.
Only a mobile number? Puppy farmer.
But they are sooooo sneaky.

I used to know someone who acted as a "beard" for puppy farmed pups. She has DC and she would have the stunt bitch in her kitchen plus an endless supply of pups. As she's a mum with DC, this created the charming impression of a delightful family home in which the pups had been raised, not the grim reality. Doing this provided a nice cash in hand income when she was on benefits, and much safer, less likely to be reported than working OTH.

For anyone in any doubt about puppy farming please have a look at many of the excellent websites such as Cariad, PupAid etc that have plenty of information. And if you think that licensed breeders means good standards, think again. Even with improved licensing conditions in Wales, it's not compulsory for instance for dogs to have access to light (many are kept in the dark at all times). The minimum staff ratio is ONE FTE for TWENTY bitches - think about that, and think about the care that will enable. In England, there is NO minimum staff ratio. I could go on, but it's all easily searchable on Google.

For those who keep trotting out this line about rescue dogs, it gets very old. I was with our gorgeous little rescue lurcher today at a Rally Trial. We've recently started doing competitive obedience as well, plus we've done our Good Citizen Bronze (doing our Silver after Christmas). I've had rescues previously that have done Gold, and I know plenty of rescue PAT (Pets as Therapy) dogs. Anyone at the rally trial today would have seen lots of rescue dogs taking part successfully in a dog sport that requires high levels of precision training. Usually, people who come out with this line aren't actually involved in any sort of training themselves, but it makes them feel good about spending a lot of money on what is essentially a fluffy accessory.

Completely agree Scuttle, the rescue line is boring. I have a beautifully behaved rescued street dog snoring in my bed. My sister is tearing her hair out with her pedigree Labrador that was bred by a family member. He has attacked two men for no reason.

Cast offs

This episode of Pnorama is harrowing but really worth watching if you're considering buying a puppy.

"I think it's unfair to pile on the OP as somehow "part of the problem". She smelled a rat, asked for advice, listened and changed her plans. So she's not 'creating the demand' for anything, is she?"

No, she's not currently part of the problem because she hasn't bought a puppy from anyone.

But anyone who pays for a puppy from a dodgy breeder is.

"Can I add that the problem isn't confined to 'designer' dogs."

It isn't at all confined to crosses...but, crosses are pretty much a godsend to bad breeders, no health testing to worry about because crossing them magically makes them healthier no pedigrees to worry about either, just stick an intact poodle in with any number of random breeds and there you go, a litter of £800 puppies from every bitch, way easier than getting two dogs of the same breed to produce a litter with puppies only worth half that.

That's why it's so hard to find a decent breeder of crosses...it's just too tempting for the bad ones.

I find it strange how everyone wants a poodle cross with a cutsey name but turn their noses up at actual poodles.

You should also know that those ' licenced breeding establishments' ( puppy farms )seen in the Panorama programme are still operating, and in theory are within the law. Very little has changed since that programme was made.

sparechange- you seem to know very little about 6/7 weeks old puppies. You also know very little about dog breeding in general. I think, just because you detest the breeding of animals/ dogs, you don't have to treat everyone else like they know as much as you do... nothing at all.

Ylvamoon
You are spectacularly wrong actually. But thanks for the contribution
What on earth makes you think I detest the breeding of animals? What an utterly utterly bizarre thing to say

I've just reread the laughable 'advice' you gave on how to chose a puppy
It seems you know next to nothing about animals, full stop. Let alone the breeding of them.

I know who my dog's mum is as I first got to have a peek at the puppies when they were 3 days old and visited regularly thereafter.

Ylvamoon by 6/7 weeks my dog's mum was pretty much ignoring the puppies when I went to visit and it was clear by that time that she felt she'd done her duty. Wouldn't have thought that first seeing the puppies with an adult female at that age is much indication of parentage at all.

"doodles" are just fashion. There is nothing inherently better that crossing brings than a pedigree.

If you want non shedding or whatever, just buy the bloody poodle. Most "doodles" don't have the poodle coat anyway, and lots end up in rescues because dc are allergic.

Bloody 'labradoodles' & 'cockerpoos'
Rescues are full of frickin dogs that were cute puppies (pedigrees as well)then people decide they don't want them any more.
We have recently had a new housing estate built near us & its full of people with uncontrollable,'designer' type dogs,that they have spent £££'s on but will soon get fed up of!

Well done OP for smelling a rat and also not bowing to family pressure.
I also recommend a pedigree breed, after researching the breed and contacting the relevant breed club. I've met our boy's mum, grandmother, great grandmother, and other members of his line, seen their show results on the internet, know his inbreeding coefficient, and have answered many questions about our situation and experience. I've checked his line's health testing. We're still in touch with his breeder who offers lifetime support. Alternatively, there are some lovely rescues

Quick look on pets4 homes- multiple pages of doodles for up to £995. Making money through misery

At 6 weeks, puppies are definitely not fully weaned and mum should not have lost interest in her puppies. In fact, it's an age when they should be all running around and learning from mum. I know, I have raised several litters. Many reputable breeders won't show mum with pups, but will bring her in later... the puppies reaction to mum is fool prove! (Seeing puppies before 6 weeks is also irresponsible, as their immune system is still building and the visitors could easily wipe out the whole litter.)
As to my advice of finding a suitable puppy- it should be a bit like an job interview. Lots of questions& answers from both sides. Ultimately your gut feeling will tell you if something is wrong - if someone is able to walk away from the cute little puppy is a different story.
And as rightly stated earlier, puppy farms as such are not against the law - yet. You might be pleased to know, that the KC is working with an committee of breeders and politicians on a better staff / dog ratio for licenced dog breeders.
Unfortunately, the puppy business is big business, and you probably never stop the crooks from cashing in!

Yes, they're not fully weaned at 6 weeks but by 7/8 weeks they should be, so at 6/7 weeks the mother won't be feeding them often and the adult dog could be anyone's dog, which is what puppy farms tend to do.

Hi op - you did the right thing. My best advice wherever you look next is don't take the dc to view a puppy. Just don't. Go on your own with no commitment and suss out the breeder and if it's dodgy you can walk away and carry on looking.
I found my cocker and paid my deposit and then went home and told the dc we are getting a puppy - it was the best ever surprise. The breeder will let you come back and visit the puppy before it's ready - I just took the kids the next time and it was magical.

My bitches have never had much interest in the pups after 6 weeks, they do still feed them but they just jump into the puppy pen, feed and jump out. They also tend to sleep watching them but not where the pups can reach them. They seem to get a bit fed up of being mobbed!

And no visitors before 6 weeks!? That's bonkers. Puppies shouldn't be kept in a sterile environment.