Puppy farm?

[fessmess]

Going to look at a puppy tomorrow after breeder put us off from last week (family illness) and now their advert on Pets4homes has changed. Two pups (11 weeks old) have disappeared from ad and now they're selling a different puppy 3 weeks younger! The photos of mum and dad are the same though. Would you be suspicious or is this normal?

[WannaBe]

"Do not take your child to see the puppies otherwise you will definitely come home with one" See I would take my child to see the puppies, would ooooh and aaaaah over how cute they are, would then say I'd decided no, walk away and explain to my child exactly why, even if they were upset. But then I am a hard bitch have very definite views on these things which I am not afraid to express, even at the cost of upsetting small children.

I'm not in the market for a puppy, but a few years ago we went into a pet shop where there was a cage with a cuuuute baby rabbit in it with a sign on which read "this bunny is free when you buy a suitable cage."


DS begged and begged round the shop for us to take the bunny home, to rescue it from the pet shop, and all the way round I said no, no, no, and explained "loudly" to him that if we take that rabbit home and come back tomorrow, there will be another bunny in the cage, and so the trade continues.

And then we left. And the next time we went there there was a baby bunny in a cage with a sign which read...... And thus I was proved right.

I believe it's important that children need to learn from an early age why we can't just always save an animal even if we feel it needs saving, and why some practices are not ones which should be encouraged, and that by giving money to certain people endorses trades which should have ceased decades ago.

But I do understand why some find It difficult to do that and would just rather not go at all.

[WellErrr]

4 WEEKS!?

As said, I have bred puppies. You can't really mistake a 4 week old. Particularly a small breed.

.......4 weeks..!?

[TrionicLettuce]

Wow. I got my mini yorkie fron pets4homes and did not realise it could of been from a puppy farm.

The word "mini" should have been a dead giveaway right from the start. "Mini" and "teacup" puppies are not legitimate varieties of existing breeds, they're an effort by dodgy breeders to breed smaller and smaller with absolutely no consideration given to health, temperament or anything other than size.

[fessmess]

For the record I think it's unjust to blame those of us that want a doodle, for whatever reason, and I hate the way others frown at the idea. It's the unscrupulous breeders at fault not the likes of me. And for all those that scream RESCUE as a first time dog owner with two kids and cats that could be a disaster. All people I know that have has rescue have taken them back due to aggression. Probably due to puppy farming. Oh the irony.

[GinIsIn]

All the people you know with a rescue took them back due to aggression? I'm sorry but I call bullshit. It is EXTREMELY rare for that to happen as dogs and new homes are vetted incredibly carefully before the dog is released. If you don't want a rescue because you want a cutesy designer dog, then at least have the balls to say so.

[Wolfiefan]

I'm not screaming rescue. The thing with a cross is you never know exactly what you will get. Why not a golden or a poodle? And the breeders probably aren't going to bother with health tests.
We are hopefully getting a pedigree. We have waited about two years. Gone through the breed club. Made friends and been recommended by someone we trust. Lots of research about the breed. Health issues and breed traits.

[TrionicLettuce]

For the record I think it's unjust to blame those of us that want a doodle, for whatever reason, and I hate the way others frown at the idea. It's the unscrupulous breeders at fault not the likes of me.

The problem is the vast, vast majority of poodle cross breeders are unscrupulous (or at best very naive, which isn't much better) which is one of the reasons why the whole "doodle" craze tends to be rather frowned upon.

It's hard enough finding a decent breeder of pedigrees even with the breed clubs there to help but with crosses it's so much harder, even nigh on impossible depending on the cross.

Unfortunately there are now "breed clubs" popping up for some of the more popular crosses which appear legitimate and profess to hold members to a code of ethics but actually have very low standards when it comes to the breeders they promote.

[Bubble2bubble]

I don't blame anyone for wanting a poodle cross, they look adorable, are generally bright and trainable and seem like the perfect ' take anywhere' family dog. If I was in the market for a dog I would seriously consider adopting one if it came up in rescue.

But really, people do need to stop kidding themselves. Buy a poodle cross/maltichon/teacup shorkie/jug/jackachon or whatever and you are supporting puppy farming. And for all those who say " yes, we bought our pup off Pets4homes and he's fine" - maybe he is... but do you honestly think his mother is fine, and where do you think she is?

And for those who bought the pup of their bank manager's poodle and their neighbour's lab - you got your pup, but do you know what genetic disorders he may be develop?

If you have never googled Puppy Farming, and you have genuinely not seen any of the horrific documentaries then please do it now.

[Northernlurker]

I know some people who bought a puppy form what was clearly a puppy farm. Gorgeous dog, almost immediately very ill. They had it a few weeks then gave it away, luckily to people who could cope. No responsible breeder would ever have so,d them a pup, three small kids and over-anxious parent does not make an ideal home for a highly strung dog.

[Bubble2bubble]

I also know people who bought Golden retriever from a 'lovely family home'. poor pup was PTS at 10 weeks the vet said his joints were so poorly formed he would never walk.

[WellErrr]

It's the unscrupulous breeders at fault not the likes of me.

There are no scrupulous doodleshit breeders.

And it is the people willing to spend hundreds on random cross breeds that fuel these unscrupulous breeders.

[BagelGoesWalking]

[tabulahrasa]

"It's the unscrupulous breeders at fault not the likes of me."

It's really not though, that is, yes, they're the ones responsible for breeding the dogs, but they do it for profit and so the people paying them are equally responsible. They'd soon stop if everyone stopped buying them.

People seem to spend more time researching phone contracts than dog breeding...

There's no logical reason to want a poodle cross over a poodle, but you're way more likely to be able to find a decent poodle breeder than to find a decent cross breeder.

[Wolfiefan]

Tabula. I agree. Research, go to breed shows, meet potential breeders. They will want to homecheck you. You will have to wait. Months at least.
Or get a mutt.
Or rescue a pedigree or a mutt. I'm a bit at the idea all rescues have aggression or other issues. People give their pets up because of money or housing or relationship issues. So many reasons. Not just because their animal is badly trained and aggressive. Decent rescues will assess the dog and advise potential owners.

[ErrolTheDragon]

OP, (and User.... too) its good you posted, and that you've realised what was going on. Hopefully your experience will help warn other people who may be thinking of getting a pup (and even, 'a puppy for christmas') and haven't thought it through properly.

In addition to local BYB and puppy farms, there's also a grim trade in illegal imports, mostly from Eastern Europe. Puppy farmed there, shipped too young with fake paperwork - they don't all make it and those that do may not be well. There needs to be greater awareness of this - especially at this time of year unfortunately.

I hope you do find a suitable pup or dog, even if it may take a while its time well spent getting it right.

[PilkoPumpPants]

I'm so glad you didn't go, well done!

Absolutely disgusted that someone brought a puppy at 4weeks old and couldn't tell they weren't ready

[user1471927379]

Okay just to clarify i got my dog a good few years back well my mum got her for me when i was going through a particularly hard time. Yes i was silly not to research into it and when i got her i had no clue she was 4 weeks old as I thought she was supposed to be a small dog anyways. When I realised how young she was because i had taken her to the vet, i done tonnes of research on how to care for her properly & of course she would have been better off with her mum but the guy we got her from definitely wouldn't of had her back. So what was i to do? If anyone is implying i knew how old she was when i got her that is just ridiculous and thank god she is in a loving home because i know other dogs aren't so lucky. The only thing i done wrong was not research but apart from then she is in good health now & well taken care of. Of course if i or anyone is to get another pet you should do your research.

[Geretrude]

Here are loads of puppies looking for homes: www.dogsblog.com/category/age/0-1-years/

And I'm afraid you are the problem. If people weren't prepared to shell out £££ for mongrels, then BYBs and puppy farms would die out overnight.

If you want to buy a dog, buy a pedigree. Talk to the breed club, talk to breeders and be prepared to wait. But don't buy a puppy from a website. Most breeders don't even need to advertise - they have a waiting list

[user1471927379]

I didn't bring her home so I didn't know where she lived, the owner of her mum drove her to our house. If i knew she weren't ready at the time i would not have taken her away from her mother! I don't think its right that she was given to me at such a young age but like i said owner wouldn't have taken her back and the vet didn't seemed too concerned, i was just given a special diet to give to her. I'm just glad she is fine now. I didn't know much about puppy farms before this post but thanks for making me aware. In future if i get another pet i will do my research.

[HatePaperDoll]

For the record I think it's unjust to blame those of us that want a doodle, for whatever reason, and I hate the way others frown at the idea. It's the unscrupulous breeders at fault not the likes of me.

But the likes of you create the demand and where there is demand, the dodgy breeders will supply to meet it.

No demand, no supply.

There are over 200 recognised dog breeds in the U.K, at least several of which will meet the criteria of most people looking to acquire a family pet. I will never understand the need for deliberately bred designer crosses.

[Cataline]

Puppies are the new drugs. Quite seriously. There is a HUGE trade in farmed and smuggled puppies. They're bought- often to order- by dealers who sell them through ads on gumtree and pets for homes. They're often advertised as a litter of say, 6 puppies and they're put with a 'stunt mum' bitch in a home (this mum may or may not have recently had pups). This 'litter' can consist of as many as 24 pups as the first ones are sold and more smuggled pups added.
They may come from Eastern Europe but equally, from Wales or Ireland. Puppies are smuggled just like drugs, frequently packed into sacks in wheel arch spaces in cars for example.

It's a multi million pound industry and at no point is a thought given to the welfare of these tiny creatures. They're a commodity, pure and simple and this trade will continue as long as people will pay ridiculous prices for 'designer' pups and support the 'need it now' mentality which is so important to these traders.

People don't want to wait for a healthy well-bred puppy. They don't want to rescue a 'mongrel' from a shelter even though the dog they'll pay a thousand pounds for is likely to be just as 'mongrel'. They don't want to be home-checked or take the time to do proper research.
It's this culture which will continue to support the needless cruelty involved in this disgusting 'industry'.

Ignorance is rife and it's so preventable. If there wasn't the demand, the trade would cease to be profitable and wouldn't exist.

[Cataline]

Oh- and bloody well done OP for taking a stand!

[twocockersarebetterthanone]

People say you shouldn't buy from pets4home or anyone licensed with the council. Well we've got one from each of those and guarantee they are not from puppy farms. Legitimate people sell on that site as it can be an easy and sensible way to sell puppies. The one we brought we had to be vetted for once we had been to see the puppies and the owner had got to know us and out situation. 8 people went for 4 puppies. If they were just in it for the money they would have sold to the first 4 - everyone paid the original asking price so it wasn't the case of selling the puppies to the highest bidders.

The other puppy we got from a legitimate KC registered gundog breeder. They have several breeding bitches and stud dogs so have many many litters a year. All dogs are seen with the Mum (and Dad unless he was a stud dog used from a different breeder to ensure no cross breeding). Again they have a waiting list and are very stringent with who they sell puppies to. They have to be licensed by the council due to the number of litters but this doesn't make it a puppy farm. All dogs receive everything they need to thrive and be healthy.

I suppose what I'm saying is that just because a puppy is advertised either on a selling site or by a large scale breeder there is a problem. Go and see any puppy you're looking to buy without any children knowing. Be prepared to ask lots of questions and to answer any asked by the seller. If they're not asking you questions then you need to question if that did is right for you. If in doubt just walk away - there will always be the right puppy for the right circumstances around the corner.

[tabulahrasa]

"Legitimate people sell on that site as it can be an easy and sensible way to sell puppies."

No they don't.

As for council licensing...IMO no-one needs to be breeding that many litters a year, they may not be keeping them in horrible conditions, but they're not ethical breeders either.

Not puppy farmers is a pretty low bar TBH, it doesn't then make them good breeders.

[Ylvamoon]

fessmess- I agree, sometimes a rescue dog is just not what we want. I had a succession of rescue dogs, and they do come with their own baggage. Some rescue centres are just as irresponsible as puppy farms. Gut feeling and some specific questions is your best guidance.
If you want a puppy from a breeder, go for it! Pets4homes is not all bad, for every puppy framer, there is also someone legit.
Go with your gut feeling, make sure, you can see mum with her puppies at around 6/7 weeks. Ask questions, about mum, dad age, how many litters, temperament.... anyone who knows their dogs, will be able to talk about them for hours!
In return, the breeder should ask questions about you and your family to ensure you have time and commitment for the puppy.

Basically buying a puppy should be a bit like an job interview.