Anti bark collar - citronella

[permaquandry]

Has anybody used the above collar to stop a dog incessantly barking?

Thanks.

The trouble with aversive methods (shaking a bottle of stones/nails) is that is does not teach the dog anything. Only that at random moments the owners loses the plot and does something that causes discomfort to the dog. You are not teaching the dog the correct behaviour. So it may work BUT your dog will only stop the behaviour is you are around, the dog will only stop the behaviour when you have the bottle in your hand, the dogs emotional state is the same so they will find an alternative outlet so instead of barking may start chewing.

There are also major studies that show that dogs trained using aversive methods have much higher stress levels than dogs using positive training methods.

I think the post above shows why aversive does not really work She remains a happy relaxed and barky dog. She has learnt so quickly when the collar is on not to bark the dog has not changed its emotional state and therefore will still bark unless it is made too uncomfortable to bark (not a position I would like to put my dogs into).

A dog trained using positive methods will not feel the need to bark and therefore true learning has taken place which is long lasting and effective. You also have a fantastically happy dog who has a strong bond with its owner and can be relaxed at all times with them

Mutty , you see, I would argue that DDog is not being made uncomfortable. When she has the collar on she chooses not to bark because she knows that would be uncomfortable. But the collar is painless, not uncomfortable and when wearing it she carries on her normal business of pootling, playing, sleeping in the sun or whatever she would be doing - just without the barking. By wearing the collar on sunny summer days we can give her more freedom and pleasure by allowing her free run of the house and garden than she would otherwise have. No, it hasn't taught her not to bark because she will bark if we don't put it on, but then I believe that barking is a fairly fundamental part of being a dog and it's not something that can be trained away or should be trained away, unless the barking is for a negative reason such as aggression. e.g. We want our dog to bark when a strange person climbs in through the window.

I know aversive dog training increases dog stress levels and affects the relationship with its owners. There is no discussion that aversive training is uncomfortable for dogs that is why it works. ALL dogs learn through positive reward based training - all dogs trained this way are less stressed.

If you are interested there are a lot of studies you can research to give scientific evidence to show how dogs brains change when aversive training is used.

Your dog has NO choice when wearing the collar, She barks and something unpleasant happens. Your argument on not wanting to stop her barking is odd as that is what you have paid money to do by purchasing the collar.

I do not want to stop dogs barking I want and do change their emotional state so the do not need to bark. Aversive training does not do that it just causes sensory discomfort if the dog does bark.

Most aversive training techniques, based on punishment (so smacking, water sprays, choke chains, prong collars etc. – anything that will expose a dog to an unpleasant or painful stimulus) aim to stop the unwanted behaviour as soon as possible. If they are strong enough (read: painful/unpleasant enough), they very quickly achieve the result – the dog will stop barking/lunging on the lead or chasing birds if beaten/shocked/yanked whenever he attempts to do so.

Everything seems to work perfectly well, and the problem can be “fixed” relatively quickly, but there is a catch.

Firstly, just because your dog is not reacting, i.e. you can’t see the outward manifestation of his emotional state, doesn’t mean he is not experiencing fear, anxiety, frustration etc. You managed to suppress the behaviour, but not eliminate the motivation for it. Your dog is still fearful/frustrated of what he was initially in the same sort of situation, but is just afraid to show it for fear of being punished – this means the motivation for the behaviour will eventually manifest itself in an alternative way, which can be equally, or even more problematic than the initial problem.

I have one for my Springer. We only use it when she is travelling in the car. She gets so excited in the car she just barks all the time. And she can keep up her barking for a 5 hour car journey which as you might imagine is pretty hideous! It also used to worry me that barking constantly for such a long period of time must be putting her under a lot of stress. We tried everything to train her out of it, spent a fortune on various crates so that she could/ couldn't see out etc etc. Nothing worked because she was just so exuberant about going places! This collar has been a life saver. She is a very smart dog. She absolutely understands that when she is wearing it she can't bark and so although she does get excited about going in the car still, she is nowhere near as manic as she doesn't bark herself into a frenzy. I guess it depends on the dog, but I know my dog very well indeed and it is absolutely not cruel to use it in the way that we do. You shouldn't keep one on a dog all the time though.

I don't really want to spend my evening discussing what I know is an uncomfortable way of training dogs and repeating what I have already said in previous posts.

But again RainDancer you have proven that your dog is still stressed and uncomfortable when in the car as he will still react if the collar is removed. Why shouldn't you keep one on a dog all the time if it is not cruel?

Absolutely use one if you think it is the way to go but do not convince yourself that because your dog is not reacting (through fear of discomfort or pain) that your dog is cured. Your dog is clever sensitive and knows only how to stop the sensory discomfort not, how to feel happy and relaxed in the situation. Your dog will not enjoy wearing the collar.

You did not try everything to stop her barking in the car because if had used a desensitising programme correctly she would not feel the need to bark in the car.

This is a problem I see daily in my line of work and after over 20 years of working with dogs I have never had to resort to a collar to solve the problem.

Mutty, I find it is always wise not to assume that you can possibly know everything about a person or a dog simply by reading a few sentences on a chat forum. The OP asked for people to share their own experiences. I have briefly done so. You have your own view, which you are entitled to, but you do not know me, my dog, or our circumstances. I am very comfortable that I am doing the best thing for my very happy contented rescue dog. I don't need your approval, nor are you in a position to give it to me.

I do not know you but I do know dogs - I am qualified to phd level on canine behaviour. I do not need to know your individual dog. I do know how all dogs learn, and how all dogs react to aversive training methods.

I am not lecturing you at all - I have no point to prove - that has already been done by many better scientists than me.

No way am I giving you my approval I do not care about you at all but the OP was asking whether to use aversive methods. I have given reasons as to why this is not the best way to go.

I have yet to learn human psychology though and why humans when faced with an alternative way of proceeding seem to get defensive and protective.

I do lots of positive reward training with ddog. It works and we both enjoy it. But it hasn't worked for the barking because the barking usually happens when I'm the other end of the house or on MN I'm not sure I buy that our relationship is affected negatively because the collar aversive training happens when I'm not there. That's the advantage over - that it's not me doing anything negative.

As for wanting/not wanting the barking I think that's fairly obvious. We don't want ddog barking non stop all afternoon at neighbours for no reason as they hang out washing etc but we do want her to be able to bark naturally if she perceives a threat or wants to warn us of something e.g. at night. We'd never leave her with the collar on if we weren't milling around in the locality.

Anyway, it's all a compromise. I'm fairly sure she's a happier dog because she can have free reign of the garden on a summer day than she would be without the collar and be kept inside, but of course if you asked her she'd tell you she'd like to carry on barking at the neighbours and have more biscuits please.

Sounds like a very pragmatic and common sense approach to me Haff. I know what works for my dog and my family and I would think you know what is right for your dog and your family better than anyone else. Regardless of academic qualifications.

Well, I have to say, the 'on your bed' thing worked, twice, once with visitors and once when DH came home.

Wrt the collar, still as confused as before but going to try the other method outlined above.

She's not too barky this evening but perhaps that's because she was so hideous at recall when out earlier and led us into a bit of possible danger (she'll be back on lead again permanently now), that she's feeling quite sheepish......?