New Puppy Mummies No. 4

[SallyBear]

Have we really got to a fourth thread already?! Wow.

Please feel free to join in.

I have Toby, who is a 7 month old foxy coloured Labrador.

[moosemama]

Good to hear Harry is on the mend.

Think Dog was the very first canine behaviour book I ever read, back in the 90s. It's a great place to start.

What other books are on the list?

I also love The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson and my more recent favourite is The Ahimsa Dog Training Manual by Grisha Stewart. Wolf books by David Mech are great for understanding origins and getting a perspective on why and how dogs are actually quite different from wild wolves.

I enjoyed reading The Genius of Dogs, just because it's a nice easy read, but also has a lot of scientific references which back up the more modern ideas of dog behaviour and intelligence.

We went out to a country park to walk the dogs today, although I had to stay in the car for the actual walk. I wrapped up warm and sat on a bench holding the dogs while the dcs went in the adventure playground with dh though. Unfortunately there was a woman there with a free ranging toddler, a pushchair she couldn't push through the mud and a loose staffie. The Staffie was super friendly and madly rushing around and jumping on every dog it saw and the woman just went into the play area, leaving the Staffie loose outside!

I thought she'd left, then all of a sudden the dog appeared out of nowhere and launched itself at my two. I wasn't ready for it and was holding them both in one hand while I rummaged for my clicker, as I was hoping to do some counter conditioning with Pip and Lurcherboy shot forwards taking Pip and I with him. I have very little strength at the moment and he pulled me off the bench! . He was barking, which is very unlike him, but I think he was just so shocked at this dog coming out of nowhere, not least of all because it came at him under the bench.

Dh came running over and the woman finally started to call the dog back just as he arrived and took Lurcherboy off me. I got our two into a sit and started treating them for watching me, but the woman was messing about with the dog right by us, saying "ooh you're a naughty girl you are", then walked off letting it loose again. As I watched she blocked the gate into the fields, just as a man was approaching from the other side with his two dogs. The Staffie then went through the fence and started winding his dogs up, so he couldn't catch them to get them on the lead and she just stood there messing with the raincover on her buggy, ignoring her dog creating chaos, while the poor man ran all over the place trying to get his dogs - who had been chased through the fence and were now heading for the car-park with a Staffie in hot pursuit - back. He had to climb through the fence, because she was blocking the gateway. When she did finally go through the gateway she was trying to push one of those Graco travel-system style pushchairs through ankle deep mud - up a steep hill, with a loose toddler and Staffie in tow. There are several walks at that park, all mapped out and some that are pushchair/wheelchair friendly - not sure what she could have been thinking.

Honestly it had to be seen to be believed. I was so annoyed, as the dogs had had a good walk, seen a few dogs but not had to interact and Pip had had lots of treats for looking but being calm and then giving attention when asked. The Staffie was lovely, but obviously completely untrained with appalling manners.

Fortunately Pip handled it very well - although Lurcherboy was clearly overexcited by all the loose dogs zipping about and showed himself up a little by bouncing around and barking initially, but then he's not had enough off-lead exercise while I've been ill, so perhaps I shouldn't be too hard on him. I was able to get both dogs to lie down and keep their attention on me after a couple of minutes and was actually pleased that Pip was still relaxed enough to take treats off me amidst all the chaos. He still managed to do some basic sits, downs and watches after the Staffie had gone, but whilst a little Cockerpoo (on lead) was watching from not far away and whining loudly at him.

Didn't do much for my nerves though. I came home, crawled onto the sofa and have been here ever since!

[insanityscatching]

Well we pick up Eric tomorrow I've spent the week puppy proofing warning dc that they need to be less prone to dumping coats and bags so as to hopefully minimise how much gets chewed on.
The breeder says he is fully paper trained, she said he's one of the easiest pups she has ever known so how would I go about moving him on from paper to outside?
We have vets on Wednesday for a check up and his jab, is he likely to feel under the weather afterwards?
Eric's the last one to leave, will his mum be upset as we take him or will she be glad of the peace once more as she's an only dog with two geriatric cats?

[needastrongone]

Oh dear Moose, I hope you are ok. It does sound though like your dogs handled it well, particularly Pip, so maybe it may give you some encouragement in a roundabout way? Doesn't excuse the lack of control of the woman though, I suppose at least the Staffie was friendly.

Eric may feel under the weather after his injection. I have two dogs, the first was definitely sleepy the next day, the puppy hasn't had any reaction at all. Look out for slightly looser poo's too, which can happen.

I think the mothers get rather fed up of the pups after about 6 weeks to be honest.

Maybe start moving the paper outside, to the doorstep to encourage Eric to toilet there, or I think I might be tempted to bite the bullet and start training outside toileting from the off, dogs do seem to be able to grasp different routines.

Moose - the books on the list are - Dominance, fact or fiction, The Culture Clash, Don't shoot the dog, Clever Dog, and The Puppy Survival Guide if you know any, I think you do as we have chatted before about this.

There's some additional reading that is optional, which is all by John Fisher, plus some website to visit ref clicker training, dogstardaily etc that they recommend I visit.

Sorry about the typos last night, glass of wine on empty stomach!!

[Sorcha1966]

Thank you Moose and Sally; re nipping.

I think I wanted to know whats normal - I wasnt to train Lola to be very calm - I think she is pretty calm for a BC; and I was wondering what the 'best' I can expect really! I have told the DC not to play boisterously with her inside - save it for the garden. I also started putting her in the crate if she is over excited and nipping/jumping....(planning to get a stair gate next week so we can put her in the kitchen as I don't want her to associate the crate with punishment)

re vaccinations DH will take her back to the breeders vet for Vacc's no 2 at the end of this week. Then she can go out. 2 weeks later i will take her to our vet and we can nave a course of lepto 4. There will be 6 weeks when she is covered by lepto 2 but not lepto 4, but to me that is an acceptable risk since most of the 'out' will be for short times etc.

[barbarianoftheuniverse]

Moose, your post about the staffie made me feel dreadful, it was pretty much what Meg did the other day, went back from miles away, out of sight, round the corner, with a huge fallen tree in between to mug two perfectly harmless dogs. Aged 5 and 6 months her recall was perfect, apart from bikes. Like a reflex as she turned and came belting back. Aged nearly 8 months she seems to decide for herself whether she will come back or not. And a lot of very basic things like 'come' and 'sit' are similar.
So any advice from anyone would be welcome. Do we start again? Increase the rewards?

[moosemama]

Barbarian, it wasn't that the dog ran up first time. I know pups most are going to do that at some point. It was that the woman went into the play area, shut the gate and left the dog outside, off-lead. Then when the dog started hooning around chasing other dogs and she actually did get it back with her, she made not attempt to put it on the lead. Then she blocked the gateway for other walkers to go in and out of the park, while she messed with the raincover on her buggy (it wasn't raining and the toddler wasn't in it anyway) and completely ignored the dog as it caused havoc for another owner and all 3 dogs nearly ended up in the car-park. I'm sure you were calling Meg and in hot pursuit. The owner of the Staffie completely ignored her dog and the chaos it was calling and didn't bother to put it back on the lead when it was with her.

At 8 months it's common for dogs to suddenly decide you don't get to decide when they come back or sit, or lie down - or do anything really. Just be consistent and go back a few steps in training. Just like when she was younger, lots of short sessions and jackpot rewards every now and then when she gets it perfect - she'll come through it. Pip is the same at the moment and now Lurcherboy is playing up as well - not sure why, unless he's just getting caught up in the excitement. (He's 8 ^years old, so has no excuse.) I would recommend using a longline for a while until her recall improves again. Lots of people start getting recall problems at this stage, when the dog realises that once they run off we're pretty much powerless to get them back unless they want to come - and of course getting your owner to chase you whilst shouting in desperation is so much fun! It's just stage and very normal - this too shall pass and all that (as long as you are consistent with training and rewards).

Insanity I'd second Needa's advice. Either move the paper to just outside the door or dispense with it altogether and just start as you mean to go on, rewarding for going outside. Lilcamper has a great thing she cuts and pastes about easy toilet training for pups. I'll see if I can find it later for you.

[moosemama]

Well that was easy - just did an advanced search on Lilcamper and 'toilet'!

Here's one of the threads she's pasted it onto.

[basildonbond]

Barbarian - quite a few of us with puppies around 7/8/9 months are struggling a bit with teenage ishoos - maybe we should have our own thread so we don't scare the new 'puppy mummies'

[Sorcha1966]

Brilliant, My partner who so wanted the puppy, and who was is at home to take care of her, has left us.

SO now I have an adored 8 week old puppy and a full time job.

FFS.

[barbarianoftheuniverse]

Aww, thank you Moose (but Meg was awful) and she jumped the good dogs' owner and got his trousers muddy. And he said 'THEY ARE MY WORK TROUSERS!' I wanted to ask why he was wearing his work trousers in the middle of an almost entirely flooded forest but really he could have been wearing white satin and it wouldn't have been my business... His dogs were admirable. I do like meeting people with naughtier dogs than my own, it's just like when the DCs were toddlers and somebody elses was having a paddy in the supermarket. An awful smug guilty bliss.
Basildon, that's a good idea. I will start one nowwww.mumsnet.com/Talk/the_doghouse/2006560-Where-the-Wild-Things-Are

[barbarianoftheuniverse]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/the_doghouse/2006560-Where-the-Wild-Things-Are

That's better!

[moosemama]

Oh Sorcha I'm so sorry to hear that.

[insanityscatching]

Thank you for the toileting help. Eric traveled back really peacefully and happily which surprised me no end. He came in found the puppy mat against the back door and pee'd so he's obviously secure in knowing what he should do.
Then we've had periods of play and then snoozing. He's drinking but has barely touched his food even though it's what he has been eating prepared to breeder's instructions.
The breeder separated him from his mum on Friday when the last pup went and he has slept alone since. The breeder cried as he left, she has loved and played with him, he's already bringing his toy back when you throw it for him. She says he's a really clever dog.
So a good start I think but we'll see how we get on overnight.

[moosemama]

Glad he's home safely Insanity.

It's common for them to be off their food when they first come home - and loose stools for a couple of days are also common, due to the stress of the move.

The breeder sounds really sensible.

Good luck with him. Hope he brings much fun and happiness to your household.

[needastrongone]

Sorcha - I am really sorry to hear your news, how are you going to manage the situation?

Glad Eric has arrived safely, I think it's quite normal for them to be a bit off their food for a day or so, so much change etc.

Harry was allowed out today for a walk, so DH and I went to a nearby public open space, usually full of dogs, which was great for Hector. We were there for about 45 minutes.

3 weeks ago, Harry would happily and easily run around like a nutter for at least 90 minutes without stopping, then be up for more later. Today, he was panting like an old man!! NO exercise at all for 3 weeks has taken it's toll, it was so funny to see him chasing his ball and come back tongue hanging out.

The puppy also is now sparko

[mintchocchick]

Really sorry Sorcha. D'you think he'll be back or are you going to need to start looking for puppy daycare/dog walking nearby? Do you work near enough to pop home or work from home for a few days to get visits in with potential dog walkers?

I agree BB about the teenage thread! We had a gorgeous sunny walk in a new wood to us with wonderful recall and DH saying "isn't minty doing well" while I glowed with pride but shrugged it off in a "oh yeah he's always this good" sort of way. Met another 7 month old, black lab and they went ballistic with each other! Like long lost brothers, running through the woods not a bother about their owners desperately calling them. It was frantic for good 10 mins till DH launched into them and dragged minty away. Long chat with owners ensued! All very jolly as neither dog was under any control whatsoever and just playful but I did skulk away as I realised all the previous dogs had been older and calm/disinterested in playing, so nothing to do with my diligent training!

Time to research recipes for liver cake I fear.

[mintchocchick]

Needa - that great about Harry - maybe it's easier for you if they're a bit more equal in terms of exercise need? Harry will probably regain muscle tone really quickly hopefully.

[Sorcha1966]

Thank you - I'm sort of overwhelmed to be honest

I don't know. I really don't know what I am going to do... I also have three kids.

we all love Lola - even in a week we adore her. So she stays. And she cant stay alone all day. She could maybe stay alone (in the crate) for 2 hours in the morning after I leave and before someone else comes in. When she is (much) older maybe a dog walker... but now...???

Am looking for a housekeeper /puppy minder/ childminder to work for me 3 days a week I guess ...

[mintchocchick]

Sorcha - do you know anyone? Might be worth asking amongst your friends for names of potential childminders. Do you know any trustworthy teenagers that might be able to come in a couple of hours after you've left to let puppy out and play for a while?

I needed someone recently for an hour midday to cover me being at work from 9/10am till 2/3ish. I text all my friends, mums of my kids friends, etc and found a fabulous teenager who is doing A levels at local school and he comes round for an hour whenever I need him too. I pay him £10 and tell him to raid the fridge so it ends up being more expensive than a dog walker but it's perfect for me for now and means minty gets cuddled and company which I figure he needs more as a puppy than in the future when he'll be up for the group do walk. Any teenagers you know or dog friendly friends who would cover some of your time out the house?

[NigellasGuest]

Sorcha I'm a bit worried about you, are you all right?

[needastrongone]

mint - you are correct re exercise levels. Today, we had a quick half and hour over the back fields, enough for the puppy and enough to keep Harry ticking over.

In addition, yesterday, we threw the ball a lot for Harry, while letting Hector just potter about, so we were out 45 minutes, but Hector, although tired, wasn't charging around for that whole period.

It's my hardest 'juggle' tbh with having two. Training is fine, as we just reinforce the commands for Harry, while Hector is learning them, but the two exercise requirements are harder and I don't have time to walk them seperately.

[insanityscatching]

Phew it is hard work but a lot of fun it has to be said.Eric was pretty good last night a bit of a whine at 1am and 4am but quickly settled and was raring to go when I got up at 5.15am. He's either charging about deranged or zonked out and seems to be making his own schedule.
Still not all that interested in food although he did eat a bit of the chicken and rice I cooked for him, he seems more interested in playing with it.
He seems to have firmly attached himself to me even though I am probably the least soppy so he'll sleep by my feet and follow me round he's currently asleep on my shoulder.
He's on four small meals a day, how long should I leave the food down once he's finished eating? I don't want him to miss out on food but I don't want it to run into the next meal either.

[moosemama]

Sorry Insanity and everyone, haven't checked in here for a couple of days.

Insanity. I wouldn't leave food down at all, if he doesn't finish it just remove it and offer him a meal at his next normal mealtime. Free feeding often leads to finicky eaters who graze all day, but never learn the proper feelings of hunger and having a nice full tum.

[insanityscatching]

Well Eric had his first jab today and was very brave, it was the looking in his ears that upset him. His photo is now on their facebook page (Charlesworth vets) and dd is getting very excited at the likes he's getting. He's been declared fit and well so will be back in a fortnight for the second one.
I've been ruthless today at moving his food once he moves away and I think he's actually eaten more overall. The vet says there's no need for the chicken and rice and goats milk so could phase them out if I wanted to so will think about that.

[moosemama]

Hi insantity, just thought I'd bump the thread for you and keep it visible for any new puppy owners that might be in need of support.

Hope it's all going well for you all.