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can someone explain clicker training to me please.

49 replies

BoatingLakeDiva · 01/05/2012 22:37

I think i get it but how does it actually work?

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tazzle · 02/05/2012 23:10

I agree dogs more forgiving ..... and a bit easier to learn with than horses Wink. I agree its not rocket science but the more you know and understand the better imo.. certainly does no harm.

if you get it wrong with horses it can go very wrong .... my daughter taught her horse ( unbeknown to me) to "give a hoof " after showing no inclination to listen to me or take it on board properly *sigh. I found out when I inadvertantly gave her the cue when reaching down to pick out her front hoof and just about got a knee on my nose Shock . Fixing that was pain !

Treats can be what ever rocks your dogs boat .... one of mine will do for anything remotely edible, the other is very fussy in her eating habits and only looked on dried liver as being acceptable to her palate treat wise !

Sorry not into current sellers of clickers . Most pets shops / stalls sell them as does ebay Wink . Some packs will have a small bag treats and maybe even a beginners guide booklet in them.

batteryhen · 03/05/2012 15:44

I am trying to use a clicker to try and train my bouncy pup to leave the decrepid cat alone.......it seems to work so far. If he is bouncing up to her, I ask him to come away and as soon as he does he gets a click and a reward. God only knows if I am doing it right??

CydCharisse · 03/05/2012 15:53

Good thread! I have tried clicker training before and my big problem is that I am clumsy and find managing lead/dog/clicker/treat really difficult. I would like to try to use it to improve my dog's walking on lead. Any good advice on how to physically manage it? I like the hairband on clicker round wrist idea - anything else like that? Sorry, this probably sounds like a stupid question, but I really struggle with it and get very flustered. Old dog trainer said I had to give the treat quickly after the click- is that true?

tazzle · 03/05/2012 19:35

Cyd that is one reason why I use the vocal tongue "clock" /click sound. ( I say letter "X") . Another is you always have your voice with you ( I also carry treats most of the time when out walking as I personally think that one is "training" all the time not just in sessions) and another is that when I am doing it riding my horse its even harder trying yo use a clicker with reins in your hands Wink.

Once the animal knows click = treat it does not always have to be immediate .... they have learned the connection and will wait for it.

batteryhen .... if its working you are doing it right Wink

BoatingLakeDiva · 03/05/2012 22:36

batteryhen - well done you! I am a bit confused about when you say the command word. Do you ask dog to 'sit' (or whatever) and then when they do, you click and treat. Or do you wait until they happen to do something you like, e.g. sit and then say it and click and treat. so any good behaviour you click. how do they then understand the verbal command. I do like the sound of the clicker training thing but am very confused as to when to say what you want. It seem slike you just click everytime they do something good but how then do they differentiate between the different words for each command.Hmm

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batteryhen · 03/05/2012 23:28

I ask him to sit, then click and treat. I also walk him laden with treats so I can bribe if needed :) my clicker is a clicker and whistle in one, and he is doing well. However if other dogs are around he suddenly develops deafness. Out on walks I whistle him, he runs up and sits in front of me then I click and treat.

The cat thing is still new. The problem being she hisses and he reads that as an invite to play and goes even more bonkers. I call him over and he knows he has to sit down and leave the cat before he gets a treat. It's still early days but I need to persevere so the poor mog gets some peace !!!

tazzle · 04/05/2012 00:13

usually BLD one sets up the behaviour / action you want then CT..... eg lure the dog to sit and reward it .... when its doing that ok add the cue (the word sit) just before the dog is about to sit. Then after a bit the dog will recogonise the word / action and sit before you need to lure it into a sit. That way the cue is easier to link to the action.

you can use words or physical cues ( or both). My dogs for example will sit to either the word "sit" or to my forefinger held up as if I was signaling "one" to someone.

If you wait till the dog does something like sit and CT that is called free shaping (as in your example but I would not say the word the first few times) .... and you would work on only that one task at a time, not CT any other action no matter how desirable. You might have to start of with the beginning of an action ..... like just looking at you or turning towards you as a atert to come rather than wait till dog comes all the way. One (s)he realises you are a source of rewards (s)he more likely to come nearer anyway.Wink

When new to training for dog or human def best to train only one task a session till both "get it". then when both experienced you can add other things in.

sit , down and come tend to be the easist as most dogs do those things anyway in the house / garden / enclosed area where initial training is easiest.

luring , or making the conditions so the dog more likely to do a certain action, can help if its not something the dog naturally offers.

there are loads sites on CT and some great books that explain it a lot more......

here is one to start off with .
homepage.ntlworld.com/k.westgate/

If dog not interested in the treats on offer one might have to use either a "better" treat ( my gsd only interested in liver at first ) or with some dogs have a special play toy they realy realy like and only get in training sessions.

have fun !

tazzle · 04/05/2012 00:18

xposted with BH ....... BH .. although you say sit then wait till he does ct now ..... did you train it that way right from the start or say sit and lure at same time then ct ?

tazzle · 04/05/2012 00:26

with the whistle how did he associate the whistle with coming as I am aware it appears we might telling bH slightly different info re the order of cue / action /ct ..... sometimes it might be relevant / important / better if the action been "got" by the dog first so that the link to the cue stronger.

BoatingLakeDiva · 04/05/2012 07:18

i think there should be a degeee course in this GrinGrin

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SnoopyKnine · 04/05/2012 08:22

Guys keep it simple and do not worry about it too much.

A few tips

Do use high value treats - Do not use boring old kibble. So cheese hotdogs, chicken liver cake etc.

Click and then treat as soon after the click as you can BUT do not worry if your timing on the treat is a bit out - you will get it faster as you go on.

Keep the sessions short

clickers with wrist straps etc here

SnoopyKnine · 04/05/2012 08:28

Recall is the one command I do not use the clicker for.

BH you are rewarding the sit not the recall. It is nearly impossible to click at the right time for recall.

Although you can cliick and treat saying his name. Say his name he looks at you click and treat - this has a similar efffect to recall as if he has learned this well and is along way off and you say his name he will come to you for a treat.

Another thing to help with recall (Indirectly!) is to teach a touch command. My dogs will touch my index finger if I ask them to touch. So if they are charging around having fun I call out touch and they will bomb back to touch my finger - Click and treat. subliminal recall!!!! This is a great command for generally getting dogs out of trouble and repositioning them. You can use it for getting them out of the car jump down and touch my finger so they stay close, touch finger when teaching heel work, if your finger is in the right position so will the dog be etc

I am a sad doglady so always do have a clicker with me, in my pocket, my handbag, glove compartment of the car etc as it really is far more effective than your voice so it is worth trying it for a bit.

batteryhen · 04/05/2012 08:47

I whistle him and when he comes back he knows to sit in front of me. He then gets a click and treat. He associates the click with the treat and it works well for us!

SnoopyKnine · 04/05/2012 09:05

Good as long as it works. SO the recall command is the whistle and the click is for the sit

batteryhen · 04/05/2012 09:13

Yes. I suppose, the clicker is new to us, we have used the whistle from day 1. I want him to know that when I click he gets a treat. That way I can use the clicker in the house too. I click for good behaviour, not specific behaviour.

BoatingLakeDiva · 04/05/2012 09:20

so if dog was running in a park and you clicked, do you think she would come back knowing a treat was in the offing? Also, I wonder how far away they can hear the cick/

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batteryhen · 04/05/2012 11:15

No - he returns to the whistle - he has always had a treat for returning to the whistle. I use the clicker when he gets his treat so he gets the idea that clicker means treat too. In the house - if I click he comes to me and sits down - I need him to do this because of the cat and baby on the way. We start our obedience classes next week too so I shall see if I am doing it all wrong!

BoatingLakeDiva · 04/05/2012 13:49

i think you are doing it all right batteryhen!

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tazzle · 04/05/2012 14:46

"i think there should be a degeee course in this " ( there isn't in CT but there is in learning theories ... well one module of the PGCE I did)

Grin Grin Grin BLD ........... it can get quite deep if you get into the learning theories involved in any training methods .... and indeed if you start discussing CT with some extremeists who maintain no pressure or negative reinforcement allowed. Some of the discussions as to the defintion of said, never mind possibly using punishment ( in the educational sense, not giving the dog a row or beating it up !) get rather heated.!!!

I do agree with snoopy, keep it simple Grin... I do have a tendancy to get into more detail (sorry) because I do more CT with horses now and because of the different in the species as well as the things we are training them to do I do need to break things down into more detail.

That is great batteryhen you have two means of identifying that coming to you is great and he will get a treat ...... and its very obviously working if he is leaving cat to get it.

I just wonder about the definition of "good behaviour" .... that can cover a huge range of actions and its not something you can ask for or apply a cue to get. CT is usually used more specifically to help the dog identify the desired behaviour and enourage it to happen again. It might make it more difficult for the dog to make the connection as to what it is being rewarded for.

batteryhen · 04/05/2012 16:18

I think it is very important to remember that there will be good days and bad days!!

I agree about the good behaviour, if he does someth ing that isdesireable, he will get rewarded. Not desireable -no reward but no negative reinforcement either ( no telling off or punishment - just ignored) I am practicing hard with the jumping up - as he likes to do this a lot. I tell my neices and any visiting kids - 4 paws on the floor or no affection. Which is difficult when he is so pleased to see you he can hardly contain himself!!

tazzle · 04/05/2012 17:07

Grin batteryhen re good / bad days ... definately

its sooooooo difficult when they are soooooooooooo pleased to see you / kids and just want you to fuss them, makes you want to be able to just explain it to them Wink.

The thing about knowing the learning theories is that you can take away all the punitive values associated with punishment ( as in retribution that we apply to humans) and see it in the educational sense.

Its like with what you do re the jumping up .... you ingore him / take away the attention. Technically that it negative punishemnt ... ie something you take away so that the behaviour will diminish. You then add in the positve reinforcer .....the treat when he has all 4 paws on the ground.... result.

Positive punishment can be anything form growling at him or saying NO to putting knee in his way so he hits it etc etc etc .... something added to the action in orde to diminish it..... but you aint doing that anyway Wink

We dont need to know all this stuff but I think it might help to understand what CT is and why it works ...... which is was the question after all Grin

SnoopyKnine · 04/05/2012 18:36

I have a degree in dog training, behaviour and management so obviously that covered clicker training.

When I started I was over the moon to see that requirements were obvious qualifications to study degree level and that you owned a dog/dogs and it had to come and study with you - my kind of courseGrin

It does depend on the dog and the activity as to the telling off. Generally I will make sure my dogs do not do things wrong eg no food on counters for them to steal etc, no chasing cars as I play a game of tuggy when cars pass etc.

However they do have a "leave it" command and an "enough" command and a go "settle". Which does tend to cover most eventualitiesGrin However they were trained by clicker to know what they mean.

So if my dog was madly jumping up and had not learned the 4 feet on the floor. I would say "enough" and remove them from the situation. If the dog was charging around the sitting room a "go settle" command would stop the unwanted behaviour.

BoatingLakeDiva · 04/05/2012 18:38

oh I would love to do a dog course like that Snoopy - I really would be very intrested in it. Oh, I don't have a degree. Do you need A levels? I don;t have any of them either, but I am quite clever. Would that do? I'm going to look it up!

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BoatingLakeDiva · 04/05/2012 22:27

I have been watching YOu Tube vids of people doing CT. they do seem to get great results but it still seems a bit like a middle man to me. I like the fact that the clicker immediately acknowledges teh good behaviour but I am still on the fence I think Hmm

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