Panorama - I want my baby back

[BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability]

Anyone watching?

This promoting of the idea that SS want to steal babies makes me very uneasy...

I'm still not clear on the woman who got her kids back. Yes he continued to have symptoms.

It's simply this was presented as a near miss and without knowing the process I'm not sure how 'lucky' she was things went her way (as the programme suggested) or whether the system would always have reached that conclusion in time.

I only caught the last bit or so, I got the overwhelming impression the secrecy and lack of transparency in family courts was being presented here too.

Spero

That's my understanding too. It's often not made clear to family members that they have to put themselves forward - which as you say causes delays.

The other problem is that family member are often not party to information avaiable to the parents, courts and social services - and are in effect being asked to take on a child 'blind' with no idea of potential issues. They are also often unaware that there finances, relationships, medical histories etc are going to be poured over by the SS and court, shared with other parties and judgements made as to whether they are 'fit' to look after a child. This doesn't happen to them if them just have a shag a make one...

So perhaps this is why extended family members don;t always come forward...

What happened with that Alyssa? did the dad hurt her accidentally, I heard he retracted a statement.

Edam, just read your message. Obviously also too late for the third son who was robbed of his mother by the process and Steve Clark who lost almost his entire family.

Orestes - sometimes the difficulty is that the parents can't or won't communicate with family members.

And often the wider family is part of the problem, particularly when you are dealing with cases of inter generational sexual abuse.

As ever, nothing is ever simple. A lot of these cases are a sad, sorry mess which is very difficult to unpick. With hindsight, wrong decisions are made or decisions that people hoped would work out well, don't.

But the mess and difficulty of real life doesn't translate well into soundbites or sensational programmes.

Spero

Totally agree.

Soundbites, TV programmes and MP's trying to self promote are a stupid way to try and explain such complex issues.

Perhaps we should consider that an expert witness could be called to court without being paid - like jury service? Then there would not be a vested interest in pretending to more certainty than actually exists.

But you'd never get anyone doing that sort of work if that were the case. After all, experts have to pay for food and housing like everyone else.

It reminds me of my favourite tweet from someone who put it so well

'there has to be a middle ground between - the system is fine! and the system is run by SPACE LIZARDS.

I have such angry people on my twitter feed accusing me of making money out of the abusive child protection system. I have asked them how I am making money out of their misery when I represent parents and win?

The whole debate is becoming so polarised, which is so sad because we all want the same thing - for children to grow up, safe, healthy and happy with their parents, if their parents can offer them that.

And I think people like JH must shoulder large portion of blame for the hysterical polarisation of necessary debate.

The father 'confessed' that he'd caused the fractures to the child in the hope that that would mean his wife would get to keep the child. He was trying to keep the mother and child together by taking responsibility for the fractures.

In the event the court decided to remove the child anyway so it didn't work. So he then decided that he would withdraw his confession.

Perhaps SWs should be allowed to proactively investigate the possibility of removing the child to gp or extended family where that is appropriate? The 26 weeks limit is just so much nonsense. We all know most children in care will remain there for years being passed to several foster carers and will not be adopted. What's the rush realistically? Much better for all avenues to be exhausted before a child is thrown on the tender mercies of the State!

nennypops - like jury service, expert witnesses could have their services co-opted by the court with just expenses paid - like jurors.

Spero - just out of interest.

All the talk is of parents - what do you do in cases where one parent agrees with the experts/LA/CAFCASS etc and the other doesn't?

The debate always seems to be framed as "the parents' v the social services. Where does the child stand if one parent is with the SS and the other against - where do you (or JH MP for that matter or the Daily Mail) stand then?

I know this complicates things, but it does happen.

BoH

Agreed. But as Spero and myself have pointed out, sometimes extended families just don;t want to do it. Sometimes they just do not want to know.

So where do you go then?

In nearly 15 years of practice I don't think I have ever had that happen.

it seems that either parents present very strongly as a couple and agree with each other or one parent is entirely or mostly absent from the proceedings.

i don't think this is so surprising when you think that either both parents are innocent of inflicting any injury, in which case they will support each other OR one parent did hurt the child and the other parent knows they failed to protect so they close ranks.

in cases where one parent hasn't been much involved, they tend to stay on the sidelines as they don't know what happened, they weren't there.

Immigrants = focus on the minority who abuse benefits/NHS (so all bad).

Feckless fathers = focus on the minority who can be classed as bad(so all bad).

Yoof = focus on the minority who can be classed as bad (so all bad).

Single mothers = focus on the minority who can classed as "bad" (so all bad).

Social workers = focus on system gone wrong, child harmed by being left with carers (so all bad).

Social workers = system gone wrong, child harmed by being taken from carers(so all bad).

I could go on but I'm sure you get my drift.

Hey it sells newspaper/gets people watching.

I have watched the programme from a very different angle. I am a mum of a baby removed at birth on a future risk of emotional harm. I fought my case. last week, I won. my baby is coming home.

I too was advised by JH to flee. I chose to ignore the advice and admit my previous failings, confront what I was facing and not run away, I chose not to blame ss but look inwards, educate myself on the law, instruct a better legal team and work tirelessly. it took 6 months but it worked.

I found the programme reasonably balanced to be honest. I think, the emotive scenes - rather than being sensationalist - were necessary. I think it's too easy to turn away from something like that, it doesn't sit comfortably with people, so it's easier to dismiss it. I was told I would have to say goodbye to my son and have a final contact too. thankfully, for us it didn't happen. but I watched that knowing it very nearly did. it's real - it happens.

once my baby is grown I am absolutely committed to setting up a support network for parents going through the child protection system - but with good advice, not bugger off to Spain and you'll be reet. I think that's a big gaping hole in this country.

As someone who's had to deal with social services I thank god they are starting to be exposed for what they are! Family courts are held in secret so we are threated with jail if we speak out about what's happened! I had a prebirth social worker become involved as I was a victim of domestic violence with my babys father. I left him after the first assault and pressed charges against him and got a restraining order. But for the social worker that wasn't enough I was accused of being a violent heroin user. If u eat allot of poppy seeds u will test positive for opiates but they have to do extra tests to c its poppy seeds. They refused to run these tests until care proceedings had begun. They had no evidence of me being violent I have never even been arrested in my life. But if a social worker says it the court believes it. Later on the police disclosures proved I was not violent. I was forced to live in a family assesment unit wich is basically similar to the big brother house. Cameras watching u every second of the day locked in a house with a strict routine with a newborn baby. Not allowed to c family or friends because my baby was aparently at risk of emotional harm again they had no evidence of this as I had broken up with my babys father, it was based on a social workers lies. After 8 weeks I finally left the assessment unit with my baby. The workers in the assessment unit also made up lies about me saying I did not bath my child. Luckily out of chance I had taken pictures of him playing with his bath toys in the bath during the period I had apartently not bathed him. These pictures had dates on them. The courts refused to look at them. Thank god I had a good solicitor who fought for me! I am the only person who left that unit out of 6 families that kept there baby. All the other parents where fantastic parents but lost there babys due to the workers lies. That unit cost £4500 a week for me to be there. Based on lies. They had no evidence at all my baby could of been at risk. I was even forced to go through bins in the pouring rain sorting through dirty nappys. But as they have cctv where the bins are I will be requesting this footage to take legal action against them once this is over. My baby is now 6 and a half months and social services have now admitted that they where heavy handed with me an admitted that the concerns they had at the beggining where false. I have my final court hearing on thursday. I must say my sons current social worker is lovely and not like the prebirth one. Some people aren't so lucky though. Allot of them are bullys. Who abuse there power. Just like paedophiles work with children. And the scandals of the workers in the elderly care homes. They get bonuses if they meet there adoption targets. But this will be down on my sons record for the rest of his life wether or not they've admitted they where wrong to begin with. When he's walking if he falls an bumps his head will they come and wisk him away from me? I mean they even said I had a sister called Collette. I only have 1 brother wich was easily proved. Its compulsive lying. I just thank god my baby has never left my care. Well we've all heard about the italian citizen who was sedated an woke up to find social services had a dr give her a c-section while she was asleep and steal her baby! People need to know what happens in the family courts. When its better to flee the country than face the courts. The new head of the court even has said it needs reformed and not to be secret! Sorry for the rant but that's not even a fraction of the lies that's been made up about me! I have found people been through the same thing and a film maker an making a film about it next year.

I am glad you didn't take his advice.

The parents are both seperate partys with different solicitors. Ultimately its up to the judge to decide but 9/10 will agree with ss

Orestes, well then obviously you are stuck with foster carers/adoption. I'm saying it's a pity gps aren't seen as a preferable first port of call where appropriate and not actively sought out by SS. It's a much more normal (to the child), less traumatic upbringing for a child with gp than in care surely?

I am sorry you have had bad experiences AileeB, but I am glad you had a fantastic solicitor and got your child back.

But do you really think that LA would pay out vast sums of money to put 'fantastic parents' in an assessment unit? Why would they do that? What's in it for them?

bunchoffives - of course, being with grandparent is better than being in care.

But common problems with grandparents
They are too old or feel they are too old to take on young child
They are already looking after one or more grandchildren
They are part of the problem - have abused their own children or cannot provide protective environment.

But if a grandparent puts him or herself forward, there MUST be an assessment.

Me too, Spero
I hope no one minds but this post is the best advice I've ever heard on the matter for parents faced with the child protection system:
suesspiciousminds.com/2012/08/16/what-should-you-do-if-social-services-steal-your-children/
sorry if that doesn't work (newbie alert!).

bollocks.
can someone link that please? I haven't a clue how sorry

Congratulations inlovewithgarp and AileeB, I'm so glad you are getting/have your babies back.

Can I ask inlove are you saying you tested positive for opiate use because you chewed poppy seeds? And that was why your baby was removed? Have I got that right?