Back again. Long. is there such a thing as a mediator who could help us?

[Minifingers]

here

here

Background (different user name - can't work out how to change back)

Another crisis last night with dd, and she has gone to my mum's. She agreed to go after we called another family member (SIL) to help us get her to agree to leave.

My mum is happy to have her living there. If needs be MIL is also happy to have her living with her.

I don't want to go into a long explanation of what precipitated this particular shit storm, suffice to say that at one point yesterday the two other dc's and I ended up sitting in the car in the dark waiting for DH to come home and help, unable to go back into the house with dd.

Her behaviour is beyond anything I can describe in a coherent way.
She is insistent that she can do anything she likes in the house, (no matter how inconsiderate) and outside it, and that nobody has the right or the authority to stop her. And she exercises that right every day as a point of principle. This makes her impossible to live with.

She has a daily need to demonstrate to me that I have no authority in my home. As a survival strategy we have adapted to this over the past few years by withdrawing demands and not challenging most of her unpleasant behaviour. She does no school work at home at all, and no chores. She pretty much stays up to whatever o'clock she wants, even on a school night. We used to have some rules (such as no phone in her room at night, in her room at 10pm on a school night) but these have all gone by the by as she made life intolerable (shouting and waking the other dc's up late at night for example) for us when we tried to enforce them. If you'd asked me what we thought was the right response to challenging behaviour from a teen a few years ago I would have said 'firm and clearly defined boundaries, trying to reach a consensus together, consistency with sanctions and rewards', but honestly - this has been impossible. She simply won't do anything she doesn't want to do, and sanctions and rewards make no difference. They are meaningless to her.

She wants me to put boundaries in place - she sees them as important, and holds up as 'good parents' those she knows who are strict, and she constantly tells me I'm a shit mother because I have no control over her behaviour - but any boundaries I do put in place she instantly destroys by refusing steadfastly to comply with them.

Recently her behaviour has taken a new turn. She draws the other dc's into the conflict by deliberately upsetting them in front of me or setting them at odds with me - I feel she does this in a fairly cold and deliberate way. She likes to show me that she has control over their behaviour, and she does - because they're frightened of her, and not frightened of me. Last night she phoned Childline in front of ds and ds2 , and told them that she felt I was unable to care properly for him and his brother. That I was a terrible mother. Then stood there laughing at them while they cried in fear at the thought that someone might come and take them away.

As for my parenting skills - well up until dd reached adolescence I think I was a bit smug about not having any significant problems with my children. Never had major problems with toddler tantrums, all the children were happy and well-behaved and achieving highly at school (with the exception of ds2 who has ASD, poor support at school and has struggled a bit, but even he's done well consideration the challenges he faces). But 4 years on, and after a bout of depression caused by health anxiety and a bout of physical illness which went on for several years (still not 100% well), 4 years of daily aggression, non-compliance with basic family rules, and regular bouts character assassination by dd, I feel inadequate and a failure as a parent, and I feel that this is impacting very negatively on the day to day happiness of my other dc's.

I know that there is a consensus on this board that it's important to understand that it's NOT personal when a teen is acting up - that mothers end up as punch bags and scapegoats because they are the family member who is most likely to get in the way of a teen wanting to exercise autonomy, but I've come to believe that this is actually not the full story when it comes to dd's behaviour towards me. I actually feel her behaviour towards me is emotionally sadistic, controlling and a bit... compulsive. :-(

I don't know why she's doing it. She doesn't know why she's doing it. But the fall-out is harming this family and my other dc's.

Anyway, sorry to ramble, I want to know whether social services could intervene in a situation like this, to provide us with some support, and maybe a sort of family mediation service. We don't need foster care for dd because we have family who are willing and able to take her, but we do need help to get her there if she's refusing to go (she does this. Only got her to agree to go last night be involving SIL, but I feel bad about dumping all this on SIL who has enough responsibilities of her own).

[whereismywodka]

mini - you said there isn't a hint of sexual abuse in your dd. I was wondering how you can be so sure. I, for one, can see a number of hints (note that I say hints, not proof)

I am not claiming to be an expert but I used to work with girls of whom a large percentage was sexually abused. Here are a number of suspicious symptoms that I have seen in them all the time. Note that all of these symptoms can occur for different reasons but coming all together in your dd makes it vital that someone should actually properly investigate.

• the sudden onset of her symptoms and the character change she had (which makes any SN diagnosis highly unlikely)
  
• the massive weight gain she suddenly had (when your are not an 'obese family') - possibly to ward off more advances
  
• the foul-mouthed and vile language she uses to talk about sex
  
• the 'boasts' she makes of how many men she has 'sucked off' etc.
  
• the extreme anger at you (presumably for not protecting her)
  
• the sense of entitlement she has vis a vis adults (in some victims of abuse this happens because they consider themselves adults after having sex with an adult)
  
• the sense of entitlement she has to 'choose' a sexual mate for her dad (this is normally a taboo in our society - if that taboo has been broken, something in that young person may has been broken, too)
  
• your own certainty that she has not be sexually abused without ever properly asking her (yes, that is a symptom, too)
  

Please, mini, don't see this as another attack on you, think of your daughter, who may be suffering so much.

Sit her down and pick a good moment and then ask her, if anybody has ever touched her in way that they should not have. Watch out, not only what she says but particularly for the level of agitation this question provokes. The more agitation (independently of the answer) the more likely it is. Or the other way round - total lack of emotional responsiveness.

[ThatVikRinA22]

mini - youll know from your boys dx that the symptoms are a guide - she isnt forced to.have all . of them - but actually selectivity is normal too in the profile. I dont know where in the country you are but liz newsons centre is in nottingham. she was the first to recognise PDA as a separate condition on the spectrum and her team are so helpful. I would give them a call. it.cant hurt. im on phone but I will get you the number later, or Google the early years diagnostic centre nottingham. they told me how to go about getting a referral from our gp. pda can be so subtle. ....you want someone with specialism to see your dd. I would stake money on her having it. i think its.more prevalent in girls, and asd' s do run in families. worth a shot id say then at least you know what you are working with. there is a very specific way of handling people with pda. you.have to be a bit cute. .. maybe some of het teachers have worked it out and thats why she seems selective.

[Minifingers]

"- the sudden onset of her symptoms and the character change she had (which makes any SN diagnosis highly unlikely)"

The sudden onset came with the onset of adolescence. This is a time when LOTS of children who have previously been easy to live with become difficult. In any case, it didn't happen overnight. Her behaviour deteriorated and became more difficult over the space of about a year - hand in hand with her physical development.


"- the massive weight gain she suddenly had (when your are not an 'obese family')"

We are an obese family. DH's mum, sister, dad and one of dd's cousins are morbidly obese. Almost all of dd's 9 cousins on her dad's side have been overweight at some point in the past few years. Some of them very overweight. DD's weight gain is down to her enjoying junk food, which she buys with her friends on the way back from school. Her inability to stop herself eating snack food goes hand in hand with her inability to make herself do anything she doesn't feel like, and that goes for exercise too. The sudden weight gain was part of a physical transformation she went through in adolescence which was very, very quick. She went from being flat chested to having the biggest bosom in the school in the space of about a year.

Ironically, when I've encouraged her to think about improving her diet one of her responses has been that she doesn't want to lose weight because it might make her breasts smaller (she has a 34 G chest). In middle class communities teenage girls tend to be very skinny, and there is a great deal of anxiety about weight gain. The community we live in is different. DD and most of her friends are mixed race or black and they really don't have the same attitude to weight. Some of dd's friends are massive - huge, big boned, big bottomed, tall girls who aren't at all worried about wearing a size 16, who like their looks and go to a lot of trouble with their appearance.

"Sit her down and pick a good moment and then ask her, if anybody has ever touched her in way that they should not have."

She would laugh in my face if I ever couched a question to her in these terms.

[Minifingers]

Thank you Vicar :-)

[RonaldMcDonald]

mini I'm sorry that things are difficult for your family atm

I think that it is important to remember that your daughter's brain is still developing and that things are still very junior in there. She will have poor impulse control and little understanding of action consequence for some time yet.
I think that that will help when you are trying to deal with her.

I think that you need to look closely at what she wants from you. Perhaps she wants just what she says she does.
Perhaps she does want firm rules..I suppose I would wonder what she means by this. She could mean that she liked the security of childhood. There there were rules for most things and she had little choice about how to do things and in what order.
Very many children find the move to adolescence really scary and frightening. They are overwhelmed and everyone else in their friend group seems to be handling it well. They develop at different times. They push and push parents to get them to put rules back in place so they can move back into the safety of childhood - crossly of course.

Also many children are overwhelmed by the move from Primary to High School. She has also had an additional school move to come to terms with.

This is a lot for an adult to cope with. Imagine leaving a workplace where you were top of the pile to be sent to an entirely new place with hundreds more workers. Now you are no longer the star and here there are lots of new and sometimes scary things happening and being said.
Then you did it again within a year or so.

Then try to imagine it with all the other changes she is undergoing combined.

This is a really scary and shitty time for your daughter. It is clear that she is in distress.

None of this minimises the problems that she is causing in the house.

Please please improve the standard of her room as soon as possible. She is searching for ways to prove that she isn't loved as much as the smaller children still in the confines of the safety of childhood.

Wonder what she is asking for when she is requesting McDonalds for breakfast etc. Sometimes we jump the gun and think it is button pushing. Sometimes it is a child asking for special treatment because they need it.
Sometimes the way they ask is messed up. They lose their way.

Weight gain can often be another way of noticing that a child is in distress. It could be that she isn't handling that choices that she suddenly has available to her. It could be that she is struggling with anxiety. It could be that there are other issues.

I'd be loathe to label her with any diagnosis as previously she didn't show any symptoms.
I'd try to spend time with her. To keep in mind that she is possibly trying on lots of different things to see how they fit.
She might be in a very bad way reaching out to see that she is still your child. Ask her what she would like to do on a Friday night perhaps. But give her options - her choice of dvd and popcorn or choc etc. It will still be her choice but she'll like the confines

This chipping back of these layers will take time and bags and bags of patience empathy and love.

It might be useful for you to see a therapist over your feelings surrounding this. She might be able to recommend a good Family Therapist. Therapy is like anything else, sometimes good, sometimes bad.

I'm sorry it is soo grim for you all atm

[RonaldMcDonald]

sorry that became a giant post

[whereismywodka]

quote: "Sit her down and pick a good moment and then ask her, if anybody has ever touched her in way that they should not have." She would laugh in my face if I ever couched a question to her in these terms. end quote

Well, phrase it differently then. But don't you think it is extremely important for you to at least try to find out?

[whereismywodka]

just read this and seeing a number of parallels to min's family.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2573165/My-mom-called-porky-dad-got-drunk-told-I-just-daughter-Explosive-claims-spoiled-cheerleader-18-suing-parents-support-ran-away.html

[babartheelephant]

First of all, as a newcomer to this thread, I just want to say how sad I am for you Mini. My dd (11 years) sounds just like yours did 3 years ago. I live in fear of her changing. I keep talking to her and talking to her and everyone tells me 'just keep talking'.
My 14 yr old niece sounds just like your dd now. She rules the roost and my sister is terrified of her. She is unkind to her siblings and disrespectful, in almost terrifyingly identical ways, to your dd. You could actually be describing my niece.
I have been the loving auntie and taken my niece in at times of extreme stress. My dh and I have strongly urged my sister to call in social services for some positive input. She is thinking about it but she is also terrified of the potential consequences. My mother has told her to call the police. It sounds like you already did all that and it still hasn't helped.
All I can say is that growing up, I had a really terrible time with my mum, we were (literally and metaphorically) miles apart for a very long time, I lived with my dad, and felt completely alien to my mum.
As soon as I left home and went to university it all changed and I slowly started to rebuild my relationship with my mum. By the time I was in my 20s we were really good friends, and by the time I was in my 30s had my dd I knew she had been a good mother, and that I loved her unconditionally, and now in my 40s she is my absolute best friend and beloved granny for my 3 kids.
This could happen to you too. I keep saying it will be like this for my sister and my niece - I really hope it will one day.
I know this is not a practical piece of advice - I'll leave that to everyone else - but in case it gives you hope.
Good luck
x

[ThatVikRinA22]

here you go mini - this is the page for the diagnostic centre with the phone numbers and loads of useful info on how to get a referral and funding.

phone number and info page for liz newsons centre

mini - its worth finding out once and for all - liz has produced a load of literature including some on PDA.

its interesting to also note that girls with PDA can adopt "highly sexualised behaviour" as a way of avoiding demands because the shock factor works.

mini - if you do nothing else call them. x

[ThatVikRinA22]

pm'd you again mini....more info. numbers. addresses. etc etc.

[mathanxiety]

Mini, you are being very selective in your response to Whereismywodka's post -- this is usual for you when you are highly resistant to something that is being suggested.

You take the word 'sudden' and counter by saying the change in your DD happened gradually with puberty (change that you think is normal) and then you say it didn't happen 'overnight'. You tend to split hairs instead of entertaining ideas you do not want to hear.

Well it's not normal to go completely haywire as your DD has. 'Normal' is eye-rolling and backchat and smart mouthiness, a bit of moodiness, and growing independence that outruns sense sometimes. Normal change is not 'different to the point that a teen is someone you want to hide away from and you dream of getting a lock on your bedroom door'.



Again, you ignore what Whereismywodka said about watching her reaction.

[mathanxiety]

Sorry, just wanted to be clear -- Is your DD mixed race?
If so, what parent does she most resemble?
And again, if so, what about your DSs? Who do they resemble?

If the teens in your area are mostly black or mixed race and tend to get pregnant young, how does your DD interpret your fear?

[whereismywodka]

mathanxiety, thanks for backing me up. As someone who has worked with abused young people it makes me upset that mini does not even look into the possibility that her dd has been abused. She just 'thinks' she is not - end of story. Why???

Also, math, did you read the article in the daily mail that I mentioned? There are so many parallels to mini's case:

• the girls hates her mother and is totally abusive to her
  
• the girl and the father seem to be the 'real couple' in the this family (just like you pointed out in mini's dd case - and I agree)
  
• the girl tried to get a new sexual partner for her father (just like mini's dd)
  
• the father takes half naked girl piggy back, which seems ever so slightly inappropriate. (compare that to the buying clothes with dad - twirling in front of him being looked up and down by dad)
  
• the girl has an eating disorder (getting fat is a sort of eating disorder as well, particularly if the rest of the immediate family is not fat)
  

mini - read that article -maybe it will open your eyes and help you to understand what is going on with your dd.

[cory]

I can see what you are saying, whereismyvodka

at the same time I have seen how much harm can be done to a young person (my dd) by professionals clinging to the idea of sexual abuse because that happened to be the type of trauma that was most present to their minds

I think the right answer is to be open to all possible explanations, but not to commit to any one of them until you have some positive proof.

ime there can be many factors in a young person's life that could explain feelings of alienation or even trauma

this is one possibility

[whereismywodka]

Cory, I agree with you - one should be OPEN to all possibilities and investigate them. That is exactly what I am saying and it is not happening.

I just want to reiterate that I do not pretend to know what is going on here or that I am not clinging to anything. All I am doing is encouraging mini to bring up the courage and investigate properly for her daughter's sake.

[cory]

sorry, I misunderstood you, whereis; I thought "help you to understand what is going on with your dd" meant that you definitely think this is what is going on

[mathanxiety]

That is true, Cory, but sensitive investigation can rule out abuse and allow other more fruitful areas of investigation to go ahead.

I do think there is an element in this family dynamic where the DD and her dad constitute a couple -- my idea was in the emotional sense, with Mini edged out by both of them, but I do think at least being open to ruling out an event of abuse or ongoing issues with a party or parties outside the family should be considered.

I also think Mini should examine the role she plays with her DD as opposed to her H's role. I have yet to see an answer to my question about what points of sustained contact Mini has with her DD, what interests they share, how Mini hopes to have a decent relationship with a DD whose interests she knows but seems to pointedly ignore for what looks to me like PC reasons.

I asked about fear of pregnancy because it has been my observation that a DD can be alienated by it or resent it, and it can come across as a double standard if she has brothers about whom no such fear is expressed even though teen fatherhood obviously is prevalent in an area where there is rampant teen motherhood (though older men can be involved) and despite the effect it can have on teen boys to father babies too young. (Not the same as the effect on a girl of course).

Also, if there is strong fear of pregnancy a teenage girl can come to perceive herself as changed utterly in her parents' eyes once puberty hits, with her relationship to them suffering. She can come to believe that her body with the changes of puberty and the onset of fertility has betrayed her, and can see it as having ruined her previous good childhood relationship with her parents.

[Kleinzeit]

Well, I for one wouldn’t be surprised if mini’s DD turned out to have an ASC or similar, maybe one of the less common and harder to spot kinds (like PDA). OK, it doesn’t seem at all definite to me, there are things mini has said that sound very much like ASC signs, but other things that make it seem unlikely (though not impossible). And the same is true for the other possible causes too. It could be an unlucky mix of causes which made each other worse – say a mild/unusual ASC making the transition to secondary school difficult, plus identity/image problems from puberty and leftover anxieties from mini’s illness and depression.

To be honest I don’t see how mini could usefully ask her DD about abuse. Most teenagers would feel uncomfortable if a parent asked them about abuse even if they hadn’t been abused at all, and mini’s DD does not respond well to feeling uncomfortable. So how would mini judge whether her DD’s response was caused by abuse? I think the best she could do is to keep an open mind in case any hints do appear.

All in all I’m in with Vicar that it might be a good idea to get PDA checked by experts. There’s enough signs to justify looking into it, and it’s not as if any of the alternatives are obviously more likely. I mean if she was suffering from an extreme physical problem that didn’t fit any obvious cause or illness, you’d get the less likely options checked out too. And if it’s not PDA then an expert investigation process might turn up other causes.

[olivevoir58]

I responded on another of your threads. My dd behaves in very similar if slightly less extreme and prolonged ways. She is adopted and suffered serious abuse as a youngster...however I do not believe attachment is her underlying problem, I think she fits the profile perfectly for PDA. She is not diagnosed but I have read quite extensively about it. It is worth considering. Do not listen to the 'carrot and stick' brigade, if you they have good cause and effect thinking, supernanny techniques will never work.

[olivevoir58]

Don't have good cause and effect

[whereismywodka]

Hmmmm....carrot and stick techniques are actually used (successfully!) to train animals who have no brains, let alone cause and effect thinking.

[whereismywodka]

sorry, did not finish...are you implying some children are even below animals?

[whereismywodka]

did anybody read the article I posted? I find it fascinating how many parallels they are to mini's dd.

[winterkills]

I read it. Most of the 'parallels' you cite above are your own inventions:
the dd has an eating disorder (despite op saying that many members of the family are overweight)
the dd twirls in front of the dh trying on clothes he chooses while he looks her up and down (wtf??)
the dd tried to get her father a new sexual partner (where has op said that?)
the dd 'hates her mother and is totally abusive to her' (op has given examples where her dd is thoughtful and nice)