Back again. Long. is there such a thing as a mediator who could help us?

[Minifingers]

here

here

Background (different user name - can't work out how to change back)

Another crisis last night with dd, and she has gone to my mum's. She agreed to go after we called another family member (SIL) to help us get her to agree to leave.

My mum is happy to have her living there. If needs be MIL is also happy to have her living with her.

I don't want to go into a long explanation of what precipitated this particular shit storm, suffice to say that at one point yesterday the two other dc's and I ended up sitting in the car in the dark waiting for DH to come home and help, unable to go back into the house with dd.

Her behaviour is beyond anything I can describe in a coherent way.
She is insistent that she can do anything she likes in the house, (no matter how inconsiderate) and outside it, and that nobody has the right or the authority to stop her. And she exercises that right every day as a point of principle. This makes her impossible to live with.

She has a daily need to demonstrate to me that I have no authority in my home. As a survival strategy we have adapted to this over the past few years by withdrawing demands and not challenging most of her unpleasant behaviour. She does no school work at home at all, and no chores. She pretty much stays up to whatever o'clock she wants, even on a school night. We used to have some rules (such as no phone in her room at night, in her room at 10pm on a school night) but these have all gone by the by as she made life intolerable (shouting and waking the other dc's up late at night for example) for us when we tried to enforce them. If you'd asked me what we thought was the right response to challenging behaviour from a teen a few years ago I would have said 'firm and clearly defined boundaries, trying to reach a consensus together, consistency with sanctions and rewards', but honestly - this has been impossible. She simply won't do anything she doesn't want to do, and sanctions and rewards make no difference. They are meaningless to her.

She wants me to put boundaries in place - she sees them as important, and holds up as 'good parents' those she knows who are strict, and she constantly tells me I'm a shit mother because I have no control over her behaviour - but any boundaries I do put in place she instantly destroys by refusing steadfastly to comply with them.

Recently her behaviour has taken a new turn. She draws the other dc's into the conflict by deliberately upsetting them in front of me or setting them at odds with me - I feel she does this in a fairly cold and deliberate way. She likes to show me that she has control over their behaviour, and she does - because they're frightened of her, and not frightened of me. Last night she phoned Childline in front of ds and ds2 , and told them that she felt I was unable to care properly for him and his brother. That I was a terrible mother. Then stood there laughing at them while they cried in fear at the thought that someone might come and take them away.

As for my parenting skills - well up until dd reached adolescence I think I was a bit smug about not having any significant problems with my children. Never had major problems with toddler tantrums, all the children were happy and well-behaved and achieving highly at school (with the exception of ds2 who has ASD, poor support at school and has struggled a bit, but even he's done well consideration the challenges he faces). But 4 years on, and after a bout of depression caused by health anxiety and a bout of physical illness which went on for several years (still not 100% well), 4 years of daily aggression, non-compliance with basic family rules, and regular bouts character assassination by dd, I feel inadequate and a failure as a parent, and I feel that this is impacting very negatively on the day to day happiness of my other dc's.

I know that there is a consensus on this board that it's important to understand that it's NOT personal when a teen is acting up - that mothers end up as punch bags and scapegoats because they are the family member who is most likely to get in the way of a teen wanting to exercise autonomy, but I've come to believe that this is actually not the full story when it comes to dd's behaviour towards me. I actually feel her behaviour towards me is emotionally sadistic, controlling and a bit... compulsive. :-(

I don't know why she's doing it. She doesn't know why she's doing it. But the fall-out is harming this family and my other dc's.

Anyway, sorry to ramble, I want to know whether social services could intervene in a situation like this, to provide us with some support, and maybe a sort of family mediation service. We don't need foster care for dd because we have family who are willing and able to take her, but we do need help to get her there if she's refusing to go (she does this. Only got her to agree to go last night be involving SIL, but I feel bad about dumping all this on SIL who has enough responsibilities of her own).

[mathanxiety]

I think you are too happy to be pushed into the role of menial labourer here and I think DD has picked up on that. As far as I can see, your DH does the fun things while you are left with the cleanup. You may not see shopping as fun, and it may not even be convenient for you, but there is status and agency attached to the things he does while you are the one responding with rubber gloves on in your role. Even so, there remains lots to be done in the house, according to your description. So you are possibly seen by your DD as the one who takes care of the menial things - badly - while DH is more hip and attuned to her as a person. (This is on top of the fact that he gives her treats and money above what you do). You are inclined not to try to look at yourself and DH as your DD may see you.

I think it's a mistake to cling to the idea that you and DH are fine, and everything you and he do is fine, and it is DD who is and has the problem, and that that problem exists is a vacuum without any reference at all to any element of yours and DH's relationship either to each other or to her.

Jeans and tops for a teenage girl are really something she would need to try on to fit properly. How does your DH know what fits her? If she has gained weight significantly or even changed shape in the last few years how does he keep up? Based on my own experience of buying clothes with DD2 who grew east and west as well as gaining in height quite a bit at around age 12 to 15, teenage girls need to try on jeans, especially if they are putting on weight or growing. Jeans from Gap which used to fit DD2 perfectly to age 13.5 didn't fit the bill at all one day when she needed a new pair, and it took quite a while and lots of traipsing around shops to find another brand that fit her. And even that was temporary.

I know you do not accept that your role as a mother is to talk about fashion with DD, and to be fair to myself, that is not quite what I said in my posts -- but what is your role then? To repeat what I said, what sustained points of contact do you have with DD? Where do you meet her as YOU, irreplaceable YOU, and not as an individual interchangeable with someone your DH could hire to play your role? Your DH and your DD are coming across to me as something of a couple within the family here.

You have picked up on the 'creepy' aspect of my posts wrt clothing, and it seems to be a distraction to you that is keeping you from addressing other points of mine. I am talking about emotional coupleness, not sexual. (I notice you say you buy pants and bras.) However, can you explain how DH knows what size of jeans and tops to buy for DD? A small detail here, but do you help her choose presents for DH at Christmas?

I think you should make the effort to see things as your DD may be seeing them. How does DD feel about DH buying things that fit closely such as jeans? Think outside the box a bit.

[whereismywodka]

Had to change name - I am Farley45

Mini, what I find perplexing is that you seem to be so sure of yourself.

You have an extremely distressed child that has no MH or SN issues, yet phones childline to report you as an unfit mother.

Something must be deeply wrong!

Whenever anybody - and I mean anybody - gives you any form of advice you are TOTALLY sure that this person is talking nonsense. Where do you take that certainty from?

You seem to be unable to look at your DDs behaviour from a deep psychological perspective. Everything that you say are shallow rationalisations.

People have an unconscious or shadow side - that comes out in signs and symbols. You seem to be totally unaware of that and only think about your family dynamics in the most superficial ways.

You will never crack this problem with your dd if you are not ready to look at the hidden dynamics, the taboos and underbelly of the outwardly 'normal' behaviour.

why don't you read a book about family therapy - maybe that will help you to understand what I am saying.

One way of understanding family problems in family therapy is to call the child who plays up the 'symptom bearer'. This child exhibits symptoms of a deeper unhealthy dynamic that is taking place in your family.

Mathanxiety and others have given you some really good pointers. They may not be right in everything they say but they show you the way to deal with this problem - by looking at the hidden dynamics and not at the superficial ones.

[mathanxiety]

I think she wants me to be stronger than her, to be superwoman, and hates me for being an ordinary human being who can't keep her in check. I think it makes her feel unsafe and resentful.

I think she has picked up your lowly status and that is what she hates you for. Even if you never tried to get her to do anything, she would walk all over you for that. She is invested in being on the winning side, and in the family, somewhere along the line, she has identified DH as the winner.

If you behaved like an alpha female, not in interactions with her, but by getting glamorous, getting confident, getting a new attitude to your house the opposite of your apologising for everything in the house and wringing your hands over the impossibility of your situation that knocked me over the head in your other threads she would sit up and take notice. You stick to your comfort zone that includes beating yourself up about the Edwardian work in progress and this girl who is so insecure underneath it all that she craves power and popularity will of course kick you in the teeth. You are everything she fears she will become.

Does she see you accepting challenges and rising above them, or does she see you letting things get on top of you?

If you poured yourself a nice G&T one evening, sat down and crossed your legs with the house looking like a tip all around you, and said 'Feck the lot of it' with a big brazen smile on your face I think your DD would respect you more. This is just a hypothetical example, but it would demonstrate that you are not chained to your chosen role, that you are above it, that you have caught it by the tail and not the other way round.

Maybe you do not come across to her as strong and confident and able? Maye this makes her feel unsafe and resentful? It is not because you don't keep her in check that she feels this way. It is because she sees you this way that you won't be able to keep her in check. It is perhaps because she sees you willing to retreat and let things slide and get on top of you and worry about money that you repel her -- are you the embodiment of her fears for herself? (In contrast to DH who works in a professional environment and dresses smartly and goes out to do as he pleases with money at lunch?)

Has your DD ever taken part in competitive sports or done any challenging group activities such as a long hiking trip with Guides or any other group such as a charity? Music lessons? A performance art of any kind like dance?

[mathanxiety]

One way of understanding family problems in family therapy is to call the child who plays up the 'symptom bearer'. This child exhibits symptoms of a deeper unhealthy dynamic that is taking place in your family.

A thousand times YES

[winterkills]

I think it's a mistake to cling to the idea that you and DH are fine, and everything you and he do is fine, and it is DD who is and has the problem, and that that problem exists is a vacuum without any reference at all to any element of yours and DH's relationship either to each other or to her

I don't agree with everything Mathanxiety has written on here but I very much agree with that.

You are going to access help through the school - that's good news but to get any real benefit from it (and not end up dismissing it as 'shite') you may well have to accept their criticism of your attitude to dd and not automatically deflect it all. You will also have to consider that they might have important ideas on how to improve the situation other than being the 'mediator' in getting her to leave her home when you have had enough.

[Minifingers]

"Jeans and tops for a teenage girl are really something she would need to try on to fit properly. How does your DH know what fits her? If she has gained weight significantly or even changed shape in the last few years how does he keep up?"

I have no idea. He's very good at it. Almost everything he's bought her has worked for her. Otherwise he's taken it back.

"Maybe you do not come across to her as strong and confident and able?"

No, I don't.

I used to. But 3 years of dd's obstructive and verbally (and on occasion physically) abusive behaviour, a prolonged physical illness (mine), a clinical depression (mine), perimenopause, and a two year battle to get a diagnosis of autism for ds2 have taken their toll. I have lost my confidence, but I've not lost hope of getting it back.

"sat down and crossed your legs with the house looking like a tip all around you"

My house IS a feckin tip. I don't do much housework. It's one of the things dd is cross about. She thinks the house should look like a show home. Obviously she doesn't think she should have to contribute to this by even so much as flushing the toilet after she's been.

"It is perhaps because she sees you willing to retreat and let things slide and get on top of you and worry about money that you repel her"

Yep, possibly. She'd probably respect me more if I worked full-time, earned 60K a year, and got cleaners in.


"Has your DD ever taken part in competitive sports or done any challenging group activities such as a long hiking trip with Guides or any other group such as a charity? Music lessons? A performance art of any kind like dance?"

She did piano but gave up because she didn't want to practice. She did Brownies but stopped going because she didn't like it. She doesn't do sports. At all. Not even PE at school. She doesn't like exercise. She doesn't like having to do anything which requires regular, sustained effort. Her hobbies are going on social media sites, watching TV, getting her nails done, doing her hair, and going out shopping with her friends.

"You have an extremely distressed child that has no MH or SN issues, yet phones childline to report you as an unfit mother"

Yes - she did this in front of me and the other dc's to upset us. She was laughing behind her hand while she did it

I am not an unfit mother. I love her, I try to support her with her education, I try to feed her a healthy diet, I am nice to her friends, I try to keep her safe.


"Whenever anybody - and I mean anybody - gives you any form of advice you are TOTALLY sure that this person is talking nonsense. Where do you take that certainty from?"

I've had some extremely useful advice on this board from Maryz, Flow4 and other parents of really difficult teens.

I'll admit I find being psychoanalysed, and having my family psychoanalysed by people on the basis of the partial information I've put in posts here a bit... tiresome. I'll admit I'm more inclined to take notice of the views of people who've experienced living with an extremely difficult teen, as they give advice which seems more astute, and less self-indulgent (I think there are people on mumsnet whose hobby it is to analyse and create narratives from some posts, that it's satisfying for them in some way. Some of the posts on this thread are just down-right weird - it's like being in a parallel universe which bears no relationship at all to what's going on in relation to this situation.

[mathanxiety]

Despite the fact that your DD's hobbies include getting her nails done, doing her hair and going out shopping, you are not one bit interested in fashion and refuse to countenance any suggestion that your role as mother could encompass any interest, feigned or real, in what she spends her time doing?

Do you have any sustained point of contact with your DD? By that I mean do you share any of her interests or do you have any interests you and she share?

You throw out telling details you clearly consider completely irrelevant and you are very vehement about refusing to take on board comments on those details. You have a right to characterise posts here any way you want. Nobody can claim any sort of professional expertise here and post on that basis. But you have also gone through family therapy and you called that shite too. Is it really possible that everyone is out of step except you and people you choose to listen to??

Whereismywodka made some really good points about your approach, and you should do some serious thinking about what she said.

Could the family therapy have been shite because of the tendencies of yours that she observed? (Total certainty that you are right and everyone else including DD is wrong, shallow rationalisations used to avoid thinking about issues that have been pointed out, superficiality and refusal to examine your own and DH's roles in the dynamic) And the 'automatic deflection' that Winterkills sees too? It's all there in spades in your last post.

In order to avoid facing the underbelly of your family, you are willing to place DD in the care of relatives or even in foster care.

[goinggreyagain]

Mini

Has your daughter had blood work done in the last year or so ? a lot of this could be from an organic cause (thyroid etc, weight gain is a flag) hormones .

I am going against what most have said here but I do believe that the fact she spends time with your DH shopping etc is a good thing. She has a connection with her Dad whilst she is struggling with her Mum, that will get her thru the next few years till she can reconnect with you.
As for her room I would spend a weekend with her (and everyone else in the family) getting it to the way she wants. I know this will be looked at as giving into to her but she still is only 14 and just sounds so overwhelmed as you all are. Some kids just get so overwhelmed when things are not "perfect" that they cannot find a way to do it themselves.
Most of all remind yourself that today you are doing the best you can.

[whereismywodka]

mini, you say flow and mary gave you good advice - but all those two were saying - over and over again - that there is nothing you can do. Isn't that - not doing anything - how you got to where you are now? What is good about that?

Also, flow's ds has been drugs addicted and since he is clean he is better. That does not apply to your dd. I can't remember mary's ds but didn't he have MH issues or also drug addiction? If yes, you cannot compare that to your dd either.

Your own problem seems to be relational and psychological and possibly abusive in nature.

Have you actually ever asked dd if someone has touched her or behaved to her in an inappropriate way? You are so sure that she is all right in that respect but have you actually ever tried to find out?

Also, Mini, I am genuinely sorry you had all these problems - with your illnesses, and your ds autism and so on. How did you overcome the depression? Did you have therapy? Did that therapist help you with the dd issues?

[cory]

I do not agree with everything mathanxiety says, but there are a couple of points which i think are spot on:

you need to have a point of contact with your teen

While this doesn't have to be clothes for each and every mother-daughter relationship, it does seem to be the obvious one for your dd;

As it is pretty well the only interest she has you can't dismiss that as something your dh can conveniently hurry through in his lunch hour. That's like saying there is nothing interesting about her or what she likes to do.

you do need to take back the reins and project an image of yourself- the adult woman- as confident and capable

That is going to be very difficult when you are not well, but remember you are what she is going to become- try not to let the prospect look too scary.

fwiw ds went through a phase where he was very unpleasant to dh at every opportunity. It was at a time when there was a lot of fear and tension in the family (dd ill and suicidal, dh facing job loss, me with various health problems), but eventually we realised that a lot of his resentment seemed to focus on his dad as an ineffectual character, as somebody who was not in charge. We talked things through and (with the help of family therapy managed to tweak boundaries just a bit, so that his dad came across as a little more of a force within the family and I stepped back a bit. His dad also started taking him out for cycle rides and that was a very helpful thing to do.

Of course I do realise that sometimes you come to a stage where you have to realise that there is simply nothing left that you can do for your teen as a parent. Flow and Maryz were both in that place. We were not. Only you can know if you are there or not.

[mathanxiety]

What Cory has described sounds quite similar to your situation -- your illness and depression and her DH's coming across as an ineffectual character who was not in charge have parallels.

[cory]

In actual fact, a lot of it was in ds' perception: dh is far more involved in decisions and has far more authority than he realised; he was just not mature enough to see that.

But it's precisely the perceptions of a teen (however immature) that matter, because that is what will decide his behaviour.

We didn't have to do that much in the way of actually changing our couple dynamics: what we did need to do was to make them more visible to ds.

[cory]

Paintyfingers, in a sense "you should be allowed to be who you are" is of course perfectly true.

At the same time, if there is an unhappy or troubled family member, then what usually happens is that the rest of the family do have to make some adjustments and try a few new things.

I never felt the "real me" was a SAHM carer. But when I had a disabled dd with MH issues, that was the role I had to fill- as best I could. Not ideal, but it helped us all survive.

I never had an interest in either football or films about aliens invading earth, either. But when I realised that ds needed someone to be interested in him and his things, then I made myself take an interest.

Of course there are tragic instances where even your best efforts fail. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't be making those efforts in the first place.

[winterkills]

OP I think it's very telling that you stress the importance of the advice of those who have had to deal with a difficult teen of their own, and ignore so many (especially on the school referral thread) who had the experience of being that teen and their descriptions of what was fuelling their anger and distress.

There are so many positives about your dd - she is confident with adults, she is popular, she works hard at the subjects she enjoys/does well in, she enjoys talking about clothes with you, is thoughtful about choosing you presents and is prepared to allow her df to choose her clothes. She behaves well for her grandparents and aunt and they are happy to take her in.

Yet you are so negative about her, about her future

[whereismywodka]

I just want to add one more thing. I think the thing that is most wrong above all, is that Minifinger and her DH have given up implementing ANY form of discipline for YEARS.

I do not pretend I have an easy solution to this. Just imagine a school that had given up on ANY discipline for YEARS. It would be utter mayhem that would be difficult to rectify.

I know Mini believes her dd is a special case and that she is 'worse' than other teens. But I tend to disagree. My DS would be an absolute MONSTER if he was given the freedom that mini's dd has. He destroyed his computer in anger, punched his dad on two occasions and ran away.

There is not a week or almost a day that he does not have to work off some punishment for his latest misdemeanour. He hardly gets any pocket money, minimal screen time and actually lives quite an austere life (which saddens my heart) because he has so little self-control. But we are quite happy as a family. Ds appreciates this discipline (he would never say it explicitly but I can read it between the lines) because it protects him from his own vile side.

Sorry, if this comes across as boastful but I just wanted to make the point that many many teenager would go off the rails just ike mini's dd, if they were given this complete lack of discipline.

What is interesting is that mini's dd does not even like it. She constantly berates her parents to take back the reins again but they are incapable of doing this.

Mini tends to go down the route of therapy and I understand that because I have similar tendencies. But I think it is important to understand that therapy in case of antisocial behaviour is counter-productive. Narcissists simply use it to learn to say what the psychologists wants to hear and get even better at their 'game'.

For anti-social behaviour there is only one answer and that is punishment coupled with a loving relationship. Both parts are not in place with mini's dd and I don't know if mini has the will to change this.

[cory]

No, I quite agree, Painty, and I find the tone of some of the posts has been quite harsh here.

I am worried that we seem to be ending up in a polarisation where either everything is the OP's fault or else nothing the OP could do would make any difference.

I found when we had difficulties (and of course that is only my personal experience) that there was actually a substantial area of middle ground. Nobody believed we had caused dc's problems (which were different in nature), but at the same time there were still things we could do to help.

Her dd's behaviour is extreme. But that in itself does not tell us whether the situation is salvageable or not.

[Minifingers]

We have tried punishment.

No pocket money.

No laptop.

No phone contract

No sleepovers.

It has made absolutely NO DIFFERENCE.

None.

We went for months and months and months trying to take the phone off her at bedtime and get her into bed at a sensible time. Result? Outright refusal. Screaming and shouting on the landing (at 10pm, waking the younger dc's up). On one occasion attacking DH (which resulted in us calling the police). This went on - literally - ever night for months. Life became impossible and the other dc's were badly affected by the continual late night shouting from dd

It doesn't make her behave well, except sometimes in the very short term will result in an apology and enough good behaviour to get permission/money to go to the cinema with friends, which will be followed swiftly by a return to business as normal (ie obstructiveness and disrespect).

This idea that ALL children can be reined in by punishments and rewards - in dd's case IT DOESN'T WORK.

[Minifingers]

Ffs - I knew this thread would draw in the smuggies with 'have you tried punishing her' and 'you need to be consistent with discipline' comments.

We have lived in a state of siege with dd for YEARS - punishing, offering rewards for good behaviour. We have done all of this FOR YEARS. She is worse than ever.



I need to forget this board as a source of help.

[whereismywodka]

mini - you are contradicting yourself. On the one had you said repeatedly that you have let her do things for years and now you are saying you have been trying to discipline her for years.

I noticed that before - you always change your story to suit your argument. But one thing you NEVER do and that is to take something on board.

[Minifingers]

"mini - you are contradicting yourself. On the one had you said repeatedly that you have let her do things for years and now you are saying you have been trying to discipline her for years."

Where have I said 'we have let her do things for years'?

We have only given up on trying to get her to bed at a sensible time and get her phone off her fairly recently. We have dropped requests for her to do homework in the past few months as it was pointless and creating conflict.


"But I tend to disagree. My DS would be an absolute MONSTER if he was given the freedom that mini's dd has"

How does that fit with: "My DS can't self-regulate and no amount of scolding and punishing has helped with that so far."

We put rules and boundaries in place and they're ignored. Punishment doesn't work. Neither does telling off. So we have stopped trying to enforce them. From your post it seems that your child has no self control at all, and your response is to treat him like a young child (I assume by being much more controlling than you would be with a self-regulating older child). Are you suggesting we try harder to control dd? Because she's not compliant? Because it works for your child or not by the sound of it.

[Kleinzeit]

I’m glad you’re finding maryz and flow’s advice useful as you hadn’t seemed to respond to them very positively before and it’s really hard to know what to say that might be at all helpful. I don’t think you contradict yourself, I just assumed you had tried different things at different times. And I don’t see a problem with the clothes, I buy my own 15yo DS’s clothes and he prefers it that way because he has always had difficulties with (some kinds of) shopping.

My only bit of advice is, please don’t feel bad about getting help from other family members. You need the respite at times from your DD, your other kids need the respite, and if family can help then let them help. I got the impression from your other threads that you’re quite hard on yourself, you said your DD can push your buttons because you feel badly about not working fulltime even though you have three children at home, one with diagnosed SN and one who is clearly an exhausting handful, and your DH has a lot on his plate too, well most people wouldn’t be able to work fulltime in that situation! So try not to be hard on yourself, and do accept any help that’s available.