Back again. Long. is there such a thing as a mediator who could help us?

[Minifingers]

here

here

Background (different user name - can't work out how to change back)

Another crisis last night with dd, and she has gone to my mum's. She agreed to go after we called another family member (SIL) to help us get her to agree to leave.

My mum is happy to have her living there. If needs be MIL is also happy to have her living with her.

I don't want to go into a long explanation of what precipitated this particular shit storm, suffice to say that at one point yesterday the two other dc's and I ended up sitting in the car in the dark waiting for DH to come home and help, unable to go back into the house with dd.

Her behaviour is beyond anything I can describe in a coherent way.
She is insistent that she can do anything she likes in the house, (no matter how inconsiderate) and outside it, and that nobody has the right or the authority to stop her. And she exercises that right every day as a point of principle. This makes her impossible to live with.

She has a daily need to demonstrate to me that I have no authority in my home. As a survival strategy we have adapted to this over the past few years by withdrawing demands and not challenging most of her unpleasant behaviour. She does no school work at home at all, and no chores. She pretty much stays up to whatever o'clock she wants, even on a school night. We used to have some rules (such as no phone in her room at night, in her room at 10pm on a school night) but these have all gone by the by as she made life intolerable (shouting and waking the other dc's up late at night for example) for us when we tried to enforce them. If you'd asked me what we thought was the right response to challenging behaviour from a teen a few years ago I would have said 'firm and clearly defined boundaries, trying to reach a consensus together, consistency with sanctions and rewards', but honestly - this has been impossible. She simply won't do anything she doesn't want to do, and sanctions and rewards make no difference. They are meaningless to her.

She wants me to put boundaries in place - she sees them as important, and holds up as 'good parents' those she knows who are strict, and she constantly tells me I'm a shit mother because I have no control over her behaviour - but any boundaries I do put in place she instantly destroys by refusing steadfastly to comply with them.

Recently her behaviour has taken a new turn. She draws the other dc's into the conflict by deliberately upsetting them in front of me or setting them at odds with me - I feel she does this in a fairly cold and deliberate way. She likes to show me that she has control over their behaviour, and she does - because they're frightened of her, and not frightened of me. Last night she phoned Childline in front of ds and ds2 , and told them that she felt I was unable to care properly for him and his brother. That I was a terrible mother. Then stood there laughing at them while they cried in fear at the thought that someone might come and take them away.

As for my parenting skills - well up until dd reached adolescence I think I was a bit smug about not having any significant problems with my children. Never had major problems with toddler tantrums, all the children were happy and well-behaved and achieving highly at school (with the exception of ds2 who has ASD, poor support at school and has struggled a bit, but even he's done well consideration the challenges he faces). But 4 years on, and after a bout of depression caused by health anxiety and a bout of physical illness which went on for several years (still not 100% well), 4 years of daily aggression, non-compliance with basic family rules, and regular bouts character assassination by dd, I feel inadequate and a failure as a parent, and I feel that this is impacting very negatively on the day to day happiness of my other dc's.

I know that there is a consensus on this board that it's important to understand that it's NOT personal when a teen is acting up - that mothers end up as punch bags and scapegoats because they are the family member who is most likely to get in the way of a teen wanting to exercise autonomy, but I've come to believe that this is actually not the full story when it comes to dd's behaviour towards me. I actually feel her behaviour towards me is emotionally sadistic, controlling and a bit... compulsive. :-(

I don't know why she's doing it. She doesn't know why she's doing it. But the fall-out is harming this family and my other dc's.

Anyway, sorry to ramble, I want to know whether social services could intervene in a situation like this, to provide us with some support, and maybe a sort of family mediation service. We don't need foster care for dd because we have family who are willing and able to take her, but we do need help to get her there if she's refusing to go (she does this. Only got her to agree to go last night be involving SIL, but I feel bad about dumping all this on SIL who has enough responsibilities of her own).

[sadandtired14]

Good luck mini

x

[mathanxiety]

I noticed also that Mini finds the thought of teen motherhood very negative while her DD is surrounded by an alternative idea and seems to share that more positive view of having babies young or even very young, and made the comment 'different cultures'. I think Mini needs to examine how it happens that a mother and daughter come to have different cultures under the same roof. Opposing attitudes to teen motherhood is a big cultural difference, not the usual goth/preppie/punk/wearing pajamas to go out tussle.

I think the status of Mini vs status of her DH within the family issue may be intertwined with the mixed race thing but lacking any word from Mini it is hard to tease it out.

[winterkills]

Doing up the room is a good idea which was suggested on a previous thread though it would probably better for the OP rather than DH to work on with dd as a way of connecting on something positive.

Unfortunately OP seems not to want to take any action that doesn't appeal to her - very much like the dd - and prefers the idea that there's nothing she can do to improve the situation, nothing she is doing/not doing that is contributing to it.

The OP considered the issue of her dd's mixed race on yet another previous thread but didn't give it much credence as one of the sources of anger because they live in an area where non-white families are probably in the majority. I think it's a mistake to overlook it.

A glance at any form of media still tells us overwhelmingly that white, slim and compliant should be the aspiration for any young girl in our society. Being non-white, big and having a mind of your own is bound to throw you into collision with that society and generate part of the anger which this girl is expressing.

[mathanxiety]

I agree with all your thoughts there Kazzyv.

[Kazzyv]

I am new to this thread but have read a lot of it. The 'power' thing seems important to the daughter. I don't know the relationship between the OP and her husband but I have read that the OP buys clothes from charity shops, whilst husband has enough money to buy her (with daughters help) a Mulberry bag for Christmas. Maybe I am reading this wrong but it seems a very unequal situation. If the husband is the main breadwinner - and controls that power- it is no surprise that the daughter will want to spend more time with him.

Rather than take her out for treats why doesn't the OP take herself and the other children out for the day while the husband stays in with daughter and fixes up her room ? Maybe the daughter wouldn't trash it so quickly if her dad had done the work on it ?

I know that is not a solution to a long term problem but from my reading of this there seems to be a huge power difference between the OP and her husband which is not helping this situation. If the OP was recognised by her daughter as being more powerful perhaps she may gain some respect.

[mathanxiety]

Cory, I also wonder if the mixed race issue has a bearing on all of this.

Whether it does or not, but especially if it does, there are all sorts of good reasons for Mini to start getting engaged with her DD in areas she may be coming across as too high and mighty to engage in with her now -- clothes/shopping/nails/hair. I also want to know if the onset of puberty was accompanied by the DD becoming aware of the fear of her getting pregnant and if she feels this is her parents' primary focus where she is concerned. I am wondering why the DD thought it would be fun to describe all the blow jobs, etc., while they were in the car.

I think sexual abuse somewhere along the line needs to be ruled out by competent and sensitive investigating. This is also based on Mini's description of how her DD regaled her with tales of blow jobs, etc., while they were in the car. An assessment could be carried out without the DD necessarily knowing this was being investigated.

(I would also like to point out that some of Vicar's signs of PDA were not present in Mini's DD according to her.)

[whereismywodka]

cory, only because you think that some of the stuff I suggest is 'imaginative' does not necessarily mean that it is. It might be imaginative to you, but for others it might be the 'obvious'.

Also, I said I used to work with youngsters who were abused, I did not say I treated them or was involved in their treatment. (it's also a long time ago, by the way)

Do me a favour, please, and do not project your own frustrations and fears you experienced while finding treatment for your daughter onto me. I find that quite annoying. thanks

[cory]

The people suggesting SN have been doing just that, suggesting it. They have not taken situations described by the OP and made suggestive remarks about them.

And you were the one that told us that you have been working with abused young people. So very clearly hinting that you were not speaking as "just a mum".

I otoh am just a mum, but it is from my experience as a mum that I know how very important it is that those who do work with troubled young people do not let their imagination run away with them.

I repeat, I do not necessarily think your suggestion is a bad one. But I do think some of your interpretations on this thread have been imaginative to say the least. And I hope that does not happen when you do actually work with abused young people.

[whereismywodka]

cory, in all due respect - I know you have been going through a hard time but I don't think it's fair to compare my remarks made on this forum to things said by professionals who were meant to treat your daughter.

I am not someone who is treating anybody here, I am just mum who is spending some of her free time having a 'chat' on an internet forum and making suggestions like many others here, including yourself.

Others have enthusiastically suggested that mini's dd has SN. Nobody complained about that.

[cory]

I absolutely agree that this angle should also be investigated.

But am very worried by your adding your own sexualised language to a situation where the OP has not given us any reason to believe sexualised behaviour is actually going on.

Why am I worried? Because I understand you work with young people, and I have seen the harm this way of putting words in people's mouths can do to them. Some of dd's medical files contain "information" which dd is supposed to have given them at meetings where I was present throughout, I know perfectly well that nothing of the kind was said, but the doctor investigating was so convinced of what he was going to hear that he actually believed he had heard it. Your "twirling" comment sounds unpleasantly like that.

Meanwhile, dd's medical condition was deteriorating and she was getting increasingly confused because nobody seemed to be understanding what she was saying. It took her a long time to learn to trust adults in authority again and accept that not everybody will twist everything you say. One over-imaginative adult can do a lot of harm, just as an adult who refuses to hear what you are telling can do a lot of harm.

[whereismywodka]

I agree with all you said - there may be many reasons mini's dd plays up or it might be that mini's dd is just a spoiled brat. What I do not understand is that the avenue of possible sexual abuse does not get looked at properly.

Obviously, it can be scary to do that. After all, if mini's dd would 'just' have SN it would be so much easier for the parents. At least, they would be off the hook and not have done anything wrong.

But I think one should have this courage and investigate...anyway, I've said it often enough. If they don't want, they don't want...

[cory]

we had a (less serious) problem with that, Kleinzeit: ds had seen too much of what disability and emotional problems had done to dd, so when he developed similar physical symptoms he refused to talk about it for a very long time

he was angry, but also terrified that acknowledging it would make him like her

and yet he loves her dearly- he just knew that he didn't want her life

for us, what has worked best has been to try to engage with him over other things- watching Torchwood toghether, going to football matches

[Kleinzeit]

One problem with trying to figure out what’s troubling mini’s DD is, what if her DD doesn’t want to co-operate in the process? You can take a younger child along for professional assessments but at 14 it would be impossible to force her. And for some young people it’s reassuring to have professional interest in their problems and to recognise that problems can be helped and are not all their fault, but from things she’s said about her brother with SN, mini’s DD might not go along with doing anything that would make her feel not-normal or labelled. I’m not sure how much help mini could get if her DD wasn’t willing?

So it may be that the best mini can do really is to look after herself and her other children and to disengage as much as possible. And hope that her DD can find her own way in life and that with space and maturity her interactions with school and family will improve.

[flow4]

I agree with you cory. And kleinzeit. There are many reasons a young person may be angry and alienated, and abuse is just one of them... It's natural for people to be reminded of their own experiences, but it is important to remember that no-one here knows mini's DD as well as mini herself, and she has considered the possibility, and decided it's extremely unlikely - so it probably is.

My DS was very, very like mini's DD at the same age - in his case it was 'caused' by grief and anger at his father leaving him, hating school, and then drug use - not abuse... Bereavement and anger may be common themes for many unhappy young people like this...

[flow4]

I agree with you cory. And kleinzeit. There are many reasons a young person may be angry and alienated, and abuse is just one of them... It's natural for people to be reminded of their own experiences, but it is important to remember that no-one here knows mini's DD as well as mini herself, and she has considered the possibility, and decided it's extremely unlikely. My DS was very, very like mini's DD at the same age - in his case it was 'caused' by grief and anger at his father leaving him, hating school, and then drug use - not abuse... Bereavement and anger may be common themes for many unhappy young people like this...

[cory]

I am worried by the very sexualised language in whereismyvodka's posts: "twirling in front of him being looked up and down by dad". I cannot find this anywhere in mini's posts.

Twirling up and down having your body appraised is not a necessary part of clothes buying for all people. It is something that whereismyvodka is reading into the situation from her own experiences or ways of thinking.

Most of the clothing I own was bought by my MIL at times when I wasn't even present, let alone doing any suggestive twirling (sorry MIL if you were disappointed). When dd decided I was too boring to be allowed to go clothes shopping she took her little brother to town: I do not believe he would have put up with any twirling.

There are families like this, where buying items of clothing simply doesn't have any significance. Everything mini says suggests that this is the case in her family. Maybe that is a mistake in her case- maybe she is underusing a potential positive force (her dd's interest in clothes) precisely because it has no significance to her and her dh. But insisting that every symbol has to mean the same in every single family is dodgy ground.

I would always be very wary of any counsellor who introduces sexual language and suggestiveness into a context off their own initiative. Being open to the possibility is great, listening to the youngster is great, putting words in people's mouths not so great.

Another possible suggestion (but only a suggestion, mind): the more I read of mini's posts, the more I wonder if the dd could feel alienated because of the mixed race question: not being sure where she belongs.

[Kleinzeit]

(PS not saying that any of those other things would for mini. But mini says that stick and carrot doesn't work for her DD and you may not believe her but I've been there so I do!)

[Kleinzeit]

Sticks’n’carrots actually worked fine for my DS for some things - but not for his very worst behaviour. For the really bad stuff I had to use a whole bunch of other strategies. Anxiety management, de-escalation, routines, visuals, communication, ASC stuff, ODD stuff, bit of this, bit of that. Stick and carrot was the least of it.

[olivevoir58]

No I'm saying that some children have excellent brains but the part of the brain that understands cause and effect is undeveloped. In my dds case it was because as a young baby, when she cried, no one came and fed her so she didn't learn that acting in a certain way results in a certain outcome. Scientifically researched and very well documented in neurological circles. Doesn't mean my dds not intelligent in other ways as they learn to compensate which builds undesirable behaviours similar to the behaviours being described by mini fingers though I'm not suggesting neglect as a young baby is the cause in her case.

[winterkills]

Actually that should say all the parallels you cite are your inventions

[winterkills]

I read it. Most of the 'parallels' you cite above are your own inventions:
the dd has an eating disorder (despite op saying that many members of the family are overweight)
the dd twirls in front of the dh trying on clothes he chooses while he looks her up and down (wtf??)
the dd tried to get her father a new sexual partner (where has op said that?)
the dd 'hates her mother and is totally abusive to her' (op has given examples where her dd is thoughtful and nice)

[whereismywodka]

did anybody read the article I posted? I find it fascinating how many parallels they are to mini's dd.

[whereismywodka]

sorry, did not finish...are you implying some children are even below animals?

[whereismywodka]

Hmmmm....carrot and stick techniques are actually used (successfully!) to train animals who have no brains, let alone cause and effect thinking.