Back again. Long. is there such a thing as a mediator who could help us?

[Minifingers]

here

here

Background (different user name - can't work out how to change back)

Another crisis last night with dd, and she has gone to my mum's. She agreed to go after we called another family member (SIL) to help us get her to agree to leave.

My mum is happy to have her living there. If needs be MIL is also happy to have her living with her.

I don't want to go into a long explanation of what precipitated this particular shit storm, suffice to say that at one point yesterday the two other dc's and I ended up sitting in the car in the dark waiting for DH to come home and help, unable to go back into the house with dd.

Her behaviour is beyond anything I can describe in a coherent way.
She is insistent that she can do anything she likes in the house, (no matter how inconsiderate) and outside it, and that nobody has the right or the authority to stop her. And she exercises that right every day as a point of principle. This makes her impossible to live with.

She has a daily need to demonstrate to me that I have no authority in my home. As a survival strategy we have adapted to this over the past few years by withdrawing demands and not challenging most of her unpleasant behaviour. She does no school work at home at all, and no chores. She pretty much stays up to whatever o'clock she wants, even on a school night. We used to have some rules (such as no phone in her room at night, in her room at 10pm on a school night) but these have all gone by the by as she made life intolerable (shouting and waking the other dc's up late at night for example) for us when we tried to enforce them. If you'd asked me what we thought was the right response to challenging behaviour from a teen a few years ago I would have said 'firm and clearly defined boundaries, trying to reach a consensus together, consistency with sanctions and rewards', but honestly - this has been impossible. She simply won't do anything she doesn't want to do, and sanctions and rewards make no difference. They are meaningless to her.

She wants me to put boundaries in place - she sees them as important, and holds up as 'good parents' those she knows who are strict, and she constantly tells me I'm a shit mother because I have no control over her behaviour - but any boundaries I do put in place she instantly destroys by refusing steadfastly to comply with them.

Recently her behaviour has taken a new turn. She draws the other dc's into the conflict by deliberately upsetting them in front of me or setting them at odds with me - I feel she does this in a fairly cold and deliberate way. She likes to show me that she has control over their behaviour, and she does - because they're frightened of her, and not frightened of me. Last night she phoned Childline in front of ds and ds2 , and told them that she felt I was unable to care properly for him and his brother. That I was a terrible mother. Then stood there laughing at them while they cried in fear at the thought that someone might come and take them away.

As for my parenting skills - well up until dd reached adolescence I think I was a bit smug about not having any significant problems with my children. Never had major problems with toddler tantrums, all the children were happy and well-behaved and achieving highly at school (with the exception of ds2 who has ASD, poor support at school and has struggled a bit, but even he's done well consideration the challenges he faces). But 4 years on, and after a bout of depression caused by health anxiety and a bout of physical illness which went on for several years (still not 100% well), 4 years of daily aggression, non-compliance with basic family rules, and regular bouts character assassination by dd, I feel inadequate and a failure as a parent, and I feel that this is impacting very negatively on the day to day happiness of my other dc's.

I know that there is a consensus on this board that it's important to understand that it's NOT personal when a teen is acting up - that mothers end up as punch bags and scapegoats because they are the family member who is most likely to get in the way of a teen wanting to exercise autonomy, but I've come to believe that this is actually not the full story when it comes to dd's behaviour towards me. I actually feel her behaviour towards me is emotionally sadistic, controlling and a bit... compulsive. :-(

I don't know why she's doing it. She doesn't know why she's doing it. But the fall-out is harming this family and my other dc's.

Anyway, sorry to ramble, I want to know whether social services could intervene in a situation like this, to provide us with some support, and maybe a sort of family mediation service. We don't need foster care for dd because we have family who are willing and able to take her, but we do need help to get her there if she's refusing to go (she does this. Only got her to agree to go last night be involving SIL, but I feel bad about dumping all this on SIL who has enough responsibilities of her own).

[winterkills]

I don't know that op didn't respond positively to flow4/maryz but it's a shame that she seems not to able to take on their most crucial piece of advice: to try to disengage from her dd's behaviour. This doesn't have to mean walking away, as she has tried, but disengaging in the face of it, not giving dd the reaction she is trying to engineer.

In the situation described above, with dd phoning childline, op could have tried to treat this as the piece of nonsense it clearly was and that would have communicated calm and safety to the other dc rather than escalating the situation by getting them to sit out in the car in the dark.

Going by the evidence of her threads, the op seems to find it hard not to react to people who disagree with or challenge her and gets bogged down in pointless arguments and emotional statements ("I need to forget this board as a source of help") instead of concentrating on the many positive posts. This could well be the same in RL.

Why, for instance, engage further with Wodka when it is obvious they are not going to agree, rather than with Paintyfingers who is gently and kindly trying to explore the issues around therapy?

I also think (and it's purely an opinion, not a judgement) that it's a mistake to rely so much on sending the dd to relatives, however tempting that must be. She is clearly trying to get op's attention, in any form, is jealous of the amount of that attention the other dc are given and probably feels rejected by op because she can't be the pretty adorable easy little girl she once was. Sending her away is going to reinforce this and exacerbate the anger and resentment.

[flow4]

Hi mini, I haven't really got anything to say that I haven't already said. I'd stick by the advice I gave in this thread. My main suggestions were and are:

• Detach emotionally from your DD's behaviour.
  
• Look after yourself and do nice, fun things you enjoy.
  
• Take all the practical help you can get.
  

I very strongly believe you need to switch your energy and attention from her to you. There are several reasons for this, but the most important are:

• You can't control her behaviour (any more), but you can control and change yours.
  
• By giving her so much attention and neglecting yourself, you are giving her the clear message that she is much more important than you and you don't matter much.
  

I used to believe that if only I understood my DS's behaviour, I could control it. I no longer believe that. The bottom line is that, whatever the reasons, you have to find a way to respond to bad behaviour, and it's the response not the understanding that is crucial.

[mathanxiety]

I am wondering (in light of a comment earlier in this thread, or possibly in one of the others that what you want is to get to the bottom of the behaviour, to understand why she does what she does) if you dismissed the family therapy because it did not give you the answer? Or did not give you the answer you wanted?

[whereismywodka]

quote: - Detach emotionally from your DD's behaviour.

• Look after yourself and do nice, fun things you enjoy.
  
• Take all the practical help you can get. end quote
  

I used to be a drugs counsellor and this is the standard advice that you give parents of drug addicted children. It's pretty much like saying 'there is nothing much you can do - let them hit rock-bottom so that they can come to their senses'. It's a very tough advice for parents in a very tough situation.

However, mini's daughter is NOT drugs addicted. She is not out of her mind on crystal meth and sees a drug induced 'red mist' that makes her so angry.

Her behaviour has developed in and through the relationships with her parents and I would say that there is lot to be said for finding out what is making her so angry (I note that there is still no answer to the question, if someone has actually tried to find out if mini's dd has been abused).

Secondly, it is paramount that some tough consequences are put into place to stop her terrorising the family.

And thirdly, effort needs to be made for mother and daughter to re-establish some sort of positive relationship (as has been pointed out by several people here on the thread, already). In my experience, that can only take place AFTER the consequences has been put into place because otherwise there is too much anger preventing this.

[cory]

whereismyvodka, do we know that minifinger's dd's behaviour is directly related to the relationship with her parents?

iirc maryz' son's relationship with drugs did appear to be secondary to his SN (or am I confusing you with somebody else, maryz?)

many teens who take drugs do it to escape something about themselves or their lives that they can't handle

the drugs exacerbate the problem but haven't necessarily caused it

when my dd started acting strangely a lot of effort was expended on family relationships and potential school bullying

dd loved it: it meant she could get the counsellor to focus for hours on these (perfectly pleasant aspects) of her life and not have to confront the real issue of her own disability and mental health issues

at first the counsellors were very strong on the "poor dd is bound to be the symptom bearer of a dysfunctional family". By the end, they had completely changed their minds. Dd's discharge notes talked of the able assistance of her loving and supportive parents, but its real focus was on dd herself as the only person who could take control of her life, given the (by now recognised) very difficult circumstances of severe chronic anxiety.

Her MH issues were very similar to drug taking in that respect: it wasn't something that had been caused by any external factor (it is a recognised part of her chronic condition as we now know), it wasn't something we could change just by being different. But we could do damage limitation and that really mattered.

I am not saying that I know anything at all about minifinger's situation.

But in a sense I am not sure it matters. Much of the advice given on this thread is good advice, regardless of the actual background:

You do need to find common ground with your dd in some way. All human beings who are in a position where they need to interact need to find some common ground. Even more so when the relationship is threatened.

You and your dh need to work together and provide a united front. That means he has to step in whenever you are disrespected.

You also need to look after yourself. flow and maryz are right. This means disconnecting emotionally to some extent, at the same time as doing the above. Not necessarily walking away or refusing to deal with bad behaviour, just not rising to it, trying not to allow it to get to you.

if any help is offered, you need to be prepared to engage with it, to work with them even if it doesn't seem right at first- we didn't get the correct CAHMS support straight away, we got the correct CAHMS support in the end, because we were patient and willing to work with the clinic and discuss what was working and what wasn't. It took several years and several changes of counsellors. And a lot of tact and patience.

[whereismywodka]

You are right, Cory, this can not be said for sure. The point that I was trying to make is that in mini's dd's case drug addiction, mental health issues and special needs have been ruled out.

What we have not heard about is if the avenue of possible (sexual) abuse has been fully investigated and also what the 'verdict' of the family therapists were.

[Anniegoestotown]

Just seen this thread and my first thought was drugs or drink.

Are you sure when she goes out she isn't drinking, smoking or taking something?

[ThatVikRinA22]

mini

i read a bit of your ealier threads and i saw someone else posted what im going to say....now its up to you what you do with it but she sounds like she has classic traits of PDA which is also on the autistic spectrum but much much harder to deal and cope with.

even down to not flushing the toilet. The fact you have a child with ASD raised my suspicions but the more i read the more i think you need to have her assessed by someone who actually knows what they are talking about - ie - someone with a specialism in PDA. Making demands of her is the fastest route to conflict if she does have it....

here

elizabeth newson diagnosed my son with AS and is a mine of info on PDA as it was her that recognised it first. She has a centre in nottingham where my son went - why not give them a call? they were massively helpful and told me how to get access to their services.

[ThatVikRinA22]

hi mini, ive pmd you. hope its of use.
take care.

[cory]

I was thinking the same as vicar- undiagnosed SN

[Minifingers]

Dd went to her first choice school - the nearest comprehensive and a buzzy and successful (though quite rough) secondary. Many of her friends transferred with her. She still sees some of these girls, including her best friend.


Re: abuse - we have not abused her and in all the time this has been going on she has never given the slightest hint that she is being abused by anyone else - to her mentors/teachers/consultant psychiatrist (who she saw 3 times through CAMHS)/her friends/her cousin (who she is best friends with)/my mum or sister (who she is close to) or ANYONE.

There ARE relational factors here of course. When she started at secondary and decided not to do any work (in year 7), decided to play up in class, school refuse for no reason given other than she 'didn't feel like going', we first tried to get to the bottom of what was happening - was she being bullied? (apparently not), was there some other reason she was refusing to engage with the educational process? At first we thought it must be a problem with the school - her teachers weren't setting any work, there was a lot of disruption in lessons... I talked to the parents of her friends and it turns out that they were doing homework and had work in their exercise books. It was just dd who didn't. The school put her on the G&T programme but she refused to engage or turn up to any of the sessions. And none of the teachers seemed to have a clue and didn't seem to care. So we moved her (with her agreement). And the behaviour continued.

She is in year 10 and has done almost no homework in 2 years. Her attendance is under 80%. She is late 4 days out of 5 because. She doesn't turn up for controlled assessments, gets chucked out of lessons for rudeness, is disruptive.

And yes - we have reacted in unhelpful ways. Initially puzzled and worried and looking for answers as to why, eventually morphing into exasperation, anger, frustration, and deep disappointment and fear for her future.

I'm ashamed of her - her horrible behaviour towards her teachers (she screamed in the face if one young teacher outside class because this teacher had reported her to her head of year :-( ) I have had literally dozens of calls from teachers who she has behaved extremely disrespectfully to. She has ruined so many lessons for other children. I feel terrible about it. And I have - at times - raged at her and sobbed and said things to her that I regret in the cold light of day. So she hates me for being angry with her. Hates me.

In the face of very very difficult behaviour - behaviour that nobody can get to the bottom of - I have been unable to show endless patience and unconditional love. And maybe that makes me a failure as a mother.

Her school mentor said that dd's situation is highly unusual. That most of the girls they see in the step by step unit (support unit in school for kids who are struggling) are there for one or more of the following reasons - that they have learning difficulties/ASD, have depression and or anxiety, have little or no support at home, very difficult circumstances like alcoholic parents., are being bullied, and come to the school with a history from primary of challenging behaviour.

Dd however appears very cheerful and high spirited most of the time, has loads of friends, is considered popular, no history of problematic behaviour from primary, no mental health or learning difficulty diagnosis, and a loving and involved family who are doing all they can to support her.

They don't know what to do with her.

[cory]

It does sound very difficult and I still don't think one can entirely rule out some kind of undiagnosed disorder.

[mathanxiety]

(Cory -- I do not speak at all for Maryz, but iirc, her DS was adopted and has issues surrounding that fact, e.g. abandonment. This is just what I have gathered from her posts here. So in a way relationships are somewhat involved).

[whereismywodka]

mini - do I remember correctly that you said at some point that you were a teenager just like your dd? I apologise if that memory is incorrect. But if it is correct, doesn;t it give you some clues about what may be going on?

[Minifingers]

"at some point that you were a teenager just like your dd?"

I barely saw my parents from 11 to 17 as I was at boarding school, and they were abroad. I changed to a local school at 17 and lived at home - it was a very unhappy period, and I moved out at 18. My dd has had the opposite of what I had - we have done all we can to help her and wanted to spend time with her. My parents had very little close involvement in my education and I was self-sufficient from an early period.

I have considered PDA. Only problem is she doesn't fit the profile in a fairly significant way. She has always had very nice friendships, sincere and healthy friendships I'd say, which have lasted a long time (since nursery with her best friend). I'd say that would be quite unusual in a child with PDA who tends to function well socially in a fairly superficial, albeit sometimes sophisticated way. Also no language delay at all. Not even the hint of it, and no hint of any problems at all until adolescence. Her primary school reports are consistently, relentlessly positive and glowing, particularly in relation to her behaviour and attitude.

[cory]

That's interesting. So the change came with puberty? Or directly to do with the move to secondary?

[ThatVikRinA22]

mini did you get my pm? i sent some info you might find useful. Its also worth noting that people with PDA or any autistic spectrum disorder do find transitional periods in their life extremely difficult to cope with - and moving to secondary school is one of them. my DS did the same - not reacted in the same way but found it incredibly hard to adjust to the changes.

please consider PDA.

[ThatVikRinA22]

mini - people with PDA DO have friendships! very easily! they are more sociable and that often masks the underlying issues - have you researched the condition? i linked to a page on the NAS but liz newson is the expert - i have dealt with liz and she and her team are fantastic and so helpful - surely at this point its worth getting her assessed by someone with specialism instead of just guessing its not? and CAMHS are not specialised enough to work or diagnose PDA.

you have another child with ASD - she DOES fit the profile if you read up on it - people with PDA are not unsociable - they are very sociable - thats why it leaves so many parents scratching their heads and wondering wtf is happening!

[ThatVikRinA22]

symptoms include passive early history! check

"People with PDA tend to have much better social communication and interaction skills than other people on the spectrum, and are consequently able to use this ability to their advantage. They still have real difficulties in these areas though, usually because they need to control the interaction."

also

"The main features of PDA are:

obsessively resisting ordinary demands
appearing sociable on the surface but lacking depth in their understanding (often recognised by parents early on)
excessive mood swings, often switching suddenly
comfortable (sometimes to an extreme extent) in role play and pretending
language delay, seemingly as a result of passivity, but often with a good degree of 'catch-up'
obsessive behaviour, often focused on people rather than things.

Often in cases of PDA there will have been a passive early history, but this is not always the case. It is believed that there may be neurological involvement in some cases, with a higher than usual incidence of clumsiness and other soft neurological signs.

The main features of PDA are described in more detail below. Other children on the autism spectrum can display one or more of these features but when many occur together it is helpful to use the diagnosis of PDA because things that help people with autism or Asperger syndrome do not always help those with PDA."

please please consider that she may have PDA - you have little else to consider by the look of your other threads. If you dont at least look at what is going on with her fully she will simply drop off the radar and become yet another statistic with you another parent feeling a total failure and knowing you did nothing wrong!

please call liz newsons team at the early years diagnostic centre - they are helpful and can give you some advice over the phone and tell you hwo to get a referral.
they did for me.
i got a referral from the gp and it cost nothing.

[flow4]

Here's Vicar's link again. Interesting, Vicar, thanks. I'd never heard of PDA. It makes me wonder about my own DS...

[mathanxiety]

I noted earlier that you said and your DH are worried DD will get pregnant and I wondered what is the basis of that apart from the fact that she is a teenage girl?

[TamerB]

Having read through I think that mathanxiety had very consistent, sensible advice.

[Minifingers]

Sorry Vicar, I did get your pm and followed the link. Thank you! Actually it's something I had privately considered, but then dismissed because of the mention of superficiality in friendships, and language delay. Also the fact that there wasn't a sniff of anything amiss until adolescence - but I'll have another look, talk to my GP (who is very good) and with DH. One last consideration. - dd is highly selective about who she's obstructive with - me and DH, and a number of her teachers, but she's not universally impossible. It's how she's managed to get away with so much difficult behaviour at school - some of the staff love her and think she's a great asset to have in class (even if she won't do her homework).

Math - many of dd's friends come from families where the mum had her first baby at 16/17. Dd knows girls a year or so older than her who have given birth. The teenage pregnancy rate is sky high where we live and having a baby very young isn't out of the ordinary. Dd loves babies and wants one when she's still young (she's told me) - I was horrified at the thought of them at her age. She's not. Different culture.