PLZ HELP! Toileting troubles, Lies and difficulty co parenting.

[ILLJ]

Hello, I’m new here and was seeking advice and opinions, I’m a mum and step mum close to tearing my hair out. Apologies for the long read, there’s a lot of info to consider.

Heres a summary of the situation so that you can understand the background and subsequent dilemma here:
My partner and I have his daughter (for anonymity we’ll call her M, age7) half the week every week, and my daughter (age 4) all the time.
M’s Mum is a qualified counsellor, v intelligent, v manipulative and v challenging to co parent with as has a lack of boundaries and lack of respect for my partner and myself. My partner is a v involved and present father and always has been going above and beyond to be a good dad.

M has never gone more than 2 weeks without soiling in her life, and her mother is of the opinion that it isn’t a big issue as she herself was doing it till age 6,7, then 9 (the self comparison keeps changing). It only becomes an issue for Mum when the soiling inconveniences her plans, then she will tell M she is being lazy or making bad choices - otherwise she makes excuses for it (e.g Tired, has a cold, tummy ache, didn’t feel it etc.). However she has now come round to the idea that M is making the choice to ignore bodily signals in order to continue what she’s doing, then soiling and sitting in it till found out.

The school put a care plan in place to get to the bottom of the problem and get medical professionals involved to solve the issues. M’s Mum has gone off plan and believes she knows best so doesn’t consistently follow the plan provided by specialists. She believes it’s only an issue when they get to secondary school and are doing it, and that soiling at this age is v normal. We have tried to stress that a Carb heavy diet of fast food or “meal deals” isn’t going to help the possibility that she could be constipated, but they are a regular occurrence when she is not at our house.

We are trying to get M to be honest about when “accidents”/ bad choices have been made so we can get her cleaned up ASAP, we got to a fantastic place of transparency where she would tell us immediately and we’d get her cleaned up, or she would clean herself up discreetly with privacy. Then we encountered a huge setback that was down to a toilet chart being implemented by Mum and the school that peers could see, this set M back into a place of concealing it and sitting in it for ages.

We are still having soiling, and M seems to be holding in number 2’s and then soiling and sitting in it, we’ve explicitly said there’s no punishment for “accidents” we want to help keep her clean and prevent soreness and infections, yet she is still fibbing about them and hiding them and sitting in excrement. She seems to have a skid and then refuse to finish the bowel movement and holds it in which leads to another “accident”.

I am at my wits end, we have tried every approach we can think of to help her through this soiling to get clean and dry, but she just doesn’t listen and act on it. We have passed the possibility of it being a medical issue as we have followed a course of laxatives to rule out chronic constipation - it really seems to be a psychological block that she can’t get over. She is having healthy bowel movements at least once a day every day.

Basically, what I’m asking is… should there be a consequence for lying? And if so, what should it be?
I am fully aware that she may be hiding it out of embarrassment or shame - however she doesn’t actually seem to be bothered by either of those issues, the problem seems to be - that she doesn’t want to stop what she’s doing to go get cleaned up for Fomo.

We are fed up of cleaning number 2’s out of pants, and sometimes it’s 3+ pairs a day. I am also fed up of being lied to. The toileting habits and lying seem to be rubbing off on my child and it’s now Twice the work to sort out.

Thanks for reading 😞

No advice OP but I wanted to say how incredibly patient you’ve been with people who haven’t bothered to read your posts properly, keep insisting you aren’t doing things you’ve clearly said you are, are trying to judge and criticise you and in at least one case someone’s been a complete dick and even then you’ve been gracious.

I think your SD is very lucky to have you and if you’re as decent to her as you have been to the twats on here you’re amazing.

Also a bit 🙄at posters trying to diagnose her with ADHD. Typical and unasked for.

Where’s the diagnosing?

There isn’t any.

Just suggestions of what the possible issues could be 🙄🙄🙄

Just want to say thank you all for taking the time to give advice or suggestions. We are under a bowel and bladder specialist, we have spoken to school about mum’s ADHD concerns and they are not thinking ADHD at all as she displays no other behaviours of it apart from this toilet battle.

I just want to say again - we do not punish her for soiling, we just want to get back to transparency to help her as we have been battling this for the years we’ve been together and will always fight her corner and strive for the best for her.

It is also important to consider that we cannot control diet, medication, toileting schedules and attitudes towards it half the week when she’s not with us.

we are simply trying our best.

Thanks for all comments, apart from the rude one lol

I’d honestly stop with the ‘lying’ - she’s clearly struggling and it’s entirely possible she’s picking up on your frustration no matter how ‘gentle’ you’re being (ie talking about ‘honesty’ - and then kids feel cornered.

In some kids stopping their focus is difficult. In others listening to signals is difficult. For some BOTH are difficult.

She will get there but zoning in on is constantly abc I’m lying you need her ‘honesty’ isn’t going to help.

If overflow from constipation is ruled out explore other options with the Gp, but stop turning it into such a big deal.

Thanks for your comment,

it is a big deal as it impacts outings, sleepovers, interactions with her peers, our finances at having to replace underwear so often, it impacts her health when she’s gets sore or unwell.

we just want to help prevent further health issues and permanent damage:)

I get that.

But it’s probably impacting her emotionally enough as it is - talking about ‘honestly’ etc with her probably isn’t helping.

Been in your shoes (including with the 50/50 parenting where the other undoes everything and wont communicate) and I empathise.

Thank you,

My little one is going through an attitude and lying phase so that’s why honesty is such a buzz word in the house at the moment and just emphasising how we appreciate honesty. That’s all.

It’s hard and it puts strain on our relationship and I think Mum relishes in thinking that we argue over her and her messages etc. me and my partner are all good luckily, but the stress is a hecking lot to manage haha

You haven’t replied to this and I’m curious. It sounds like she gets a lot of attention from both houses for this behaviour and a lot of mixed messages about it too, particularly from her mum who says it’s normal.

If she’s soiling herself repeatedly, you can get pull ups for older children. This would reduce the wastage of pants and the health issues too.

It sounds like her mum’s mental health is going to impact on her daughter’s physical and mental health if this continues.

Hi there!

We told her off for a short period of time when we thought it was a choice. She is dry at night which seems like the mental block goes to sleep when she does and she’ll get up and go for a wee half asleep.

She knows that it’s smelly and that people can smell it but doesn’t do anything about it until discreetly asked/told that we can smell it.

we don’t want to put her in pull ups because I think that would say “it’s okay to poop in these when you want to as we can throw them away” she also has PE with peers and It could encourage ridicule and we don’t want that. My partner scrubs the pants and puts them in the wash and fetches her a fresh pair. I often have to order big packs of pants so that we don’t ever run out.

I worry that Mum is going to impact M’s development too but as a step mum my hands are tied and I have no authority to call Mum out on her parenting choices. I did once and I was removed from a group chat and excluded as a parent.

If there’s no issues at night that does suggest it’s behavioural / psychological, doesn’t it?

I sympathise with you because as a stepparent you are in such a hard place. Understand what you’re saying about ridicule at school but if she’s regularly shitting herself, she’ll be ridiculed already, and even worse than she would be for pull-ups.

If you ever have her for a solid period of a couple of weeks, it might be worth a try. Pull ups on until there’s no accidents for 24hrs? I’d be very surprised, from what you’ve said, if this is purely a medical issue.

Perhaps I should’ve mentioned that previously. M was showing signs of being ready to be out of pull-ups at night for a long while but Mum outright refused to let it happen until she was 5.

When she turned 5 we jumped on it right away, she was dry in a couple days, with only 1/2 wetting accidents.

I think that does factor in to why we think it’s more on the psychological side.

@ILLJ - it is never just psychological . The holding may have started like that but it always becomes a physical issue because withholding leads to a physical problem. The Eric site explains why in detail.

Definitely don’t put her in a pull up. Being dry at night doesn’t mean that it’s not constipation

It’s okay to not engage with her (clearly batshit) mum and to do what you feel is best in your time with her.

Look into parallel parenting. It’s what we do after years of attempting and failing to coparent effectively with my husband’s ex-wife. Kids can and do learn to behave differently in different contexts.

We had this with my DSS (who is also autistic so that added to the difficulty). What worked mostly was a whole shower/bath routine for accidents as it meant he was completely taken away from his activity so learned to leave it and come back rather than missing 20+ minutes for a full shower and change. Also the consistently taking him to the toilet and in particular if he was farting as obviously this signalled a need to go. We also figured out other signals (e.g. half an hour after food). It was a long road, not helped by his mom who kept putting him in nappies, on a potty etc. long after he was toilet trained and recessing him regularly, but we got there.

We did have one sudden period of soiling again but it coincided with a new partner of his mom’s being introduced and so was clearly an emotional trigger (said partner turned out to be very nasty and removed from contact) so it is possible your DSD is triggered by emotions and something has set back her ability to be honest with you.

honestly I wouldn’t punish the lying but at 9 she would be fully showering and cleaning herself up after every incident.

If her mum had this same issue and is neurodivergent and has other health conditions, couldn't it be that SD is also neurodivergent in the same way or has one of the same health conditions?

When you mentioned this my first thoughts were about autism/PDA and also difficulties with switching between tasks due to hyperfocus.

Her mum has ADHD and it commonly runs in families. Also, I know a child who had a very similar issue and it was due to demand avoidance and difficulty transitioning out of hyperfocus. The child I'm talking about also said very similar things to OP's SD. They also lied a lot, too. One reason children may lie is due to poor impulse control.

I believe this is what worked for my friend. Rather than quickly dealing with the accident they would have a full wash and change clothes. This seemed to tip the balance between just soiling herself and continuing what she was doing, and realising doing that would lead to something much longer and more boring than going to the toilet.

Re: lying I'd say the same approach - try and make lying the more boring and less desirable option, not a quick fix. Also, if lying is to cover things SD has done impulsively, I'd say limit temptation to do those things. So, if lying about stealing sweets then don't keep sweets accessible as too tempting.

Please just be aware that ADHD is hereditary in so much as the child is likely to have this or another form of neurodivergence. Being distracted and therefore soiling can be a sign of ADHD. Engrossed in something, not wanting the boredom of boring bodily functions. Or distracted and genuinely not realising.

The way you speak about her mum is quite sad - as though you don’t believe her diagnosis. Most female adult women diagnosed ‘diagnose themselves’ first - ie they realise that X,Y,Z that they have always done/always struggled with are actually signs of neurodivergence. They then learn more about it and a lightbulb goes on, they realise this describes them to a T - THEN they go and see a doctor. Because no adult goes to a doctor and says X,Y,Z is ‘wrong’ with me because that’s the only normal they’ve ever known - so it’s ‘normal’ until they realise it’s actually not. Whereas with children, they’re diagnosed because (and with the background that there is much greater awareness now) their parent sees them do X,Y,Z (or school, or both). Most parents awaiting a diagnosis of ADHD or ASD would tell you they know their child has it, they just aren’t officially diagnosed yet. So it is actually no different to what you’re describing.

Then try reading about how debilitating living with ADHD as an adult actually is. It’s not a pretend disability, it’s completely disabling in some ways.

Thanks for your message,

I understand why you may feel that I am being unreasonable/unfair/ or disbelieving of Mum.
However, I have known this woman for a couple years now, and have had to put up with DP being spoken to absolutely hideously, being commanded to do things, I was supposedly immature for not greeting Mum at the door for every drop off (when I just wanted to avoid awkwardness) my partner expected to drop everything at the drop of a hat, M not being fed a proper dinner - ever unless someone else has cooked, M not being bathed regularly enough (baring in mind soiling happens regularly and this kid has gone unwashed for 4 days sometimes), I’ve seen Mum say that she can’t be expected to be held to a normal person’s standard because of her chronic illness and then another week she goes to see the same band twice, back to back up and down the country.

And for all of her abhorrent behaviour (which I have only given a couple of vague examples but has been absolutely vile) she makes excuses, and I’m afraid they’re just not excusable. I know people with ADHD that don’t treat the people around them as lesser, or as servants. Manners cost nothing and this woman rarely ever implores to say thank you or admit a wrongdoing.

I think I honestly do struggle to believe her ADHD diagnose, as she repeatedly gaslit my partner when they were together trying to convince him that he had it, using her profession as her “well I know because of XYZ you definitely have it” and he does not display a single trait. She is in the counselling/therapist profession and she diagnosed herself (which you cannot do for ethical reasons) and then paid to go private, armed to the back teeth with inside out knowledge of what ADHD diagnoses require and got one.

M also hasn’t exhibited any other display of ADHD or neurodivergence. We spoke to the school when Mum mentioned ADHD as a possibility and they said they’ve never even considered it for M as she shows absolutely 0 signs. Mum cannot give a diagnoses of ADHD to M as it’s unethical and biased given her profession.

Sorry that’s a bit all over the place but I don’t want you to think that I’m just poopooing Mum with no reason or rhyme or dismissing every suggestion of neurodivergence or a medical issue.

Why are you offering up evidence of mum being abusive/neglectful to prove she can’t possibly have ADHD? Whether a partner or parent is good or bad is independent of ADHD and has no bearing on it. She has a diagnosis from an independent professional which you should accept.

On the 0 signs at school of ADHD, this is very commonly reported for girls because they mask better and ADHD in girls is often missed because staff are only trained in the symptoms of ADHD in boys which are very different. So this isn’t proof of your stepdaughter not having ADHD either.

I wouldn't just trust the school. A lot of girls have a primarily inattentive presentation of ADHD, which is often overlooked as children are not disruptive.

Think you’ve misread, DSD is 7, my daughter is 4