Just an observation

[Magda72]

A few things struck me today when I was having a think about stuff.
• my kids live with a man (my dp) who isn't their dad while their dad lives with their half siblings. They see him at the weekends.
• my ss's live with their mum while their dad lives with kids who aren't his. They see him at the weekends.
• my ex has to handle the fact that 3 of his kids live with a man who isn't him.
• dp works all hours to pay huge maintenance for his kids as his exw refuses to work & so can't see his kids during the week. Dp & exw split mutually.
• my ex works to support 5 kids.
• I work to provide my half for my 3 kids.
• dp & I rarely get a full weekend together as his kids live a 2 hour drive away & have weekend activities. Plus they now don't want to see me (again - on & off for years) as it's "too upsetting for their mum".

The people who are doing best out of this whole scenario are ex's dp who was the OW; moved in to our old (large) home; who gets to have her partner & kids every day & who no longer works because "she doesn't want to", & my dps exw who also refuses to work; who spends money like it's going out of fashion & who treats dp like a glorified babysitter.

No bitterness here, this is life; the rough with the smooth & we just have to get on with it - it's just an observation. However, it seems to me like everyone has had to make sacrifices bar the two aforementioned women who sort of managed to get exactly what they wanted.
Just makes me wonder sometimes what all the rest of us are at!

Magda, I think you bring very good points looking at the situation through the eye of the children rather than the adults.

I think you are very right that however much we try to do our best, the whole set up is very confusing for the children, be the kids who come to see their parent every other week-end and the kid who live with an adult full time but isn't acting as a parent.

My experience of children is such family is that they become quickly very protective of their own feelings. They know there are tensions, however much the adults pretend to protect them from them, and their desperation to see these tensions eased is that they keep a lot of their own feelings for themselves for fear to bring on more tension if they share them. Adults then make assumptions that all is fine, yet when they start acting up, their behaviour is put down to bad attitude/poor behaviour management by the other parent.

If your DD has started to develop a strong bond with your OH, it is only natural that she would want him to be party to the events that matter a lot to her and it must indeed be disheartening for her to have to accept that she is not 'entitled' to his dedication as he would if he was her dad.

It is harder for either set of kids if they evolve in an environment where most of their friends have very different set-ups. My DS used to be the only one of his friends with separated parents, but in the last two years, two of his closest friends saw their parents separating, one if the worse circumstances since it involved an affair. I think it does help to know they are not the only one, although as teenage boys do, they of course don't talk about it.

In terms of Ex's attitude, I think it comes down to the fact that although they would never admit to it, many women feel that they 'bagged' their good husband when they married or had kids with them. Of course we all get with our partner for love, but it can't be denied that for many, there is an element of 'winning the price' and a sense of ownership that comes with it.

I think some of those women never get over the fact that they've lost their price, even when they are the ones who broke the deal and genuinely think that by having got the first grab on that 'price' should continue to benefit from it.

I can think of two women who resemble very much what you describe Magda, who married for the lifestyle their husband could give her more rather than for love and who felt that by being 'chosen' by them, they were entitled to that lifestyle forever.

Magda72
From some of your descriptions, it sounds like you don't prioritise your new family enough. I think it is not acceptable that your DP has to see his kids outside your house because seeing them together with you "is too upsetting for their mum." Effectively ex-partners dictate how you live your life.

I don't think children should be indulged like this and treated like little emperors so that they tell their father / mother where they agree to see them. Children join the life of their parents, not guide their life. They're not in the centre of the universe. Maybe these are strong words, but I think people tend to lose all perspective around children nowadays and this makes the kids sick, too. Because when kids are given authority where they don't have any (make decisions about the life of adults - their parents), it makes them anxious and takes a toll on their mental health (because they shouldn't be in a position to make such decisions).

I also don't think it's right that you schedule your time so that your kids are away with their father when your partner is with you.

In a way, by trying to do best for others, as you see it, you've built a lovers' relationship. It's kind of a boyfriend/girlfriend rather than full partnership. Taking DP' son to the nephew's birthday only follows from that, logically. Because you spend personal time together, but then follow what others tell you to do. I think it's just bad for everyone - you as a couple, and all kids involved. It also sends wrong messages to the Exs - that they continue having some priority and a sort of a family type relationship however skewed.

I am in a very similar situation and I think some profound principles need changing. i think it is possible to build continuous environment and new family, with stability for all kids, but this comes from the decision of the couple: all kids are welcome in the house together, all decisions are taken collectively, your partnership is the centre of decision-making, etc...

banana
Thank you for sharing your story. My DP has asked me to marry him, and I think there is a real chance that he sees building a relationship like the one you had.

My DS has very warm feelings to him but in no way similar to treating him like a stepfather. Because he is not one. Because all the negotiations are with his ex-P as to when he is to look after his kids, who also refuse to come into our joint house, and he goes along with it.

So in the end, I and my DS has the leftovers of time, of celebrations. DP' children holidays are considered, thought about in terms of who looks after them, etc. My DS never.

I think what it means overall, that the man wants to be an ideal daddy to his kids and have a great lover/girlfriend. I think it is a kind of exploitation: you provide support, warm environment, sex, kindness, etc. But you don't get support yourself as a woman, as a mother. Only as a lover/girlfriend. I am ready to split up from DP if this continues, it is just a lie; this is not about love, this is about his guilt and his comfort.

I don't want to live my life in some kind of remainders and scraps from the failed mutant but ongoing family of my DP

And just from another thread where both Magda and Banana have posted.

Magda - under no circumstances you should be alone at Christmas. I don't know, perhaps I am wrong, but maybe part of your resentment and difficulty around the kids are actually resentment of DP who leaves you alone at Xmas, who lets them treat you like this, etc. Maybe if he were more "there" and "putting you first," you would be able to take stepchildren behaviour more lightly?

Banana - you had a child with him and your relationship didn't change? What's wrong with all these men? People should be able to understand that you can build things on love and devotion, but not on guilt, giving-in to manipulation, living in resentment; it's like living in hell while lying to yourself that you're trying to do your best!

It is interesting to hear other perspective.

My DP has 2 DC with his ExW. (I wasn't the OW, we met after they split by mutual agreement).
DP and I have bought a new house together as the house I owned wasn't big enough for DSC to have their own bedrooms. I put down the majority of the deposit for the new house, DPs deposit was a gift from his parents. I also pay a larger proportion of the mortgage and bills as DP pays well over the CSM/CSA recommended amount, about 20% of his wages and I earn more than DP.

I also pay for clothing for my DSC and I have paid for their Christmas presents as DP can't afford it at the moment. He is still relatively new in his profession so will earn more than me in years to come.

His ExW wants more money from him as she sees is DP living in a bigger house than her with a nice lifestyle. She commented she'd never be able to afford to buy a house when DP and I bought ours. She has a university degree but only wants to work part time, she freely admits she only ever wanted to be a stay at home mum, not that there is anything wrong with that, but its not always possible. For me, she has equal responsibility to pay for her DC but also to pay fully for herself.

I think she thinks she should have the same lifestyle as DP. DP could give her 50% of his wages but she would have to earn what I earn to have the same lifestyle. I have to add, we don't live in luxury, don't have foreign holidays or expensive cars, in fact DPs car has done 200k and needs replacing but we can't afford to.

She sees that DP gives her x amount for the DC, but I don't think she thinks about the money he/we spend to house, clothe, entertain and feed them on the 2-3 nights a week they are with us.

And I know she has childcare to sort out on the days she has DC as the DC are still primary age and getting a job around school hours is difficult but DP has talked to her about the DC living with us and seeing her 2-3 nights a week (at the DCs request) and she said he'd have to take her to court before that happened which he doesn't want to do as its much better for the DC to keep things civil.

Bluebell9 - he pays well above the CSA minimum at 20% of his salary - you are having a laugh as thinking that is way over!!!

Like in your scenario - OW saw EX and I have a lifestyle that she wanted. What she never appreciated was we both earned the same to afford this. On his own and her being an all time consumer things were not so rosy. Her solution was to get EX to not contribute properly for his DCs to try to reach the life she wanted.
My lifestyle comes from the fact I work bloodyhard andshe is jealous

Bluebell- CMS minimum rate for 2 kids is 20% of net salary before deductions like overnight stays.

istherelifeafter40 Thank you so much for your posts and insights. These are some of the most helpful comments and advice - you completely get my circumstances. I feel for you in yours. I wish I’d been more strong and clear minded from the beginning. You sound as if you have an instinctive concern that unfortunately I would echo - basically some (perhaps many) men seem to not be able to move on - and indeed do not want a marriage again, even if they ask us to marry them. They are still dancing to the Exes or their kids in an appeasement and guilt ridden family dynamic that will not allow a new relationship in their lives.

Strangely enough I did have this instinct early on, my DP was just the most lovely, most kind and caring person that had entered my life. Yet I did not want to date him, I spurned him for many months! I questioned why, and I just kept thinking, there is no room for me in his life, with his daughters and Ex wife.

I crumbled in the end only to find that I had made a mistake too late down the line. He made a huge effort to make us feel at home, asked me to marry him too, made some changes (like having more regular arrangements with the kids, his Ex not having a key to our house).

However this caused, unbeknown to me for many months, a lot of bubbling unrest and resentment, fuelled by his Ex wife who did not want him to stop being her husband. So my DP was getting a lot of passive aggressive, or just aggressive comments, snide remarks, all resisting anything that was making our relationship able to survive. Things like resisting a regular arrangement with the kids - his Ex hated this, because it meant less contact between her and DP and also less control - she couldn’t just send them to us with no warning or refuse to have them. This was something she and DP could agree, so it wasn’t us dictating when and where, just having a fairly predictable schedule, which was good for the kids too as it meant they knew where they were. She told the kids it was all me, that it was out of order, would tell one of the kids who we have full time that it was her home that I was turfing her out of - and basically refused to have her overnight from the age of 12 to 18, even though DP had bought her outright a house with a bedroom for each child - that bedroom was empty for 5 years.

So in effect the kickback from DP moving on and forming a relationship with me was relentless pressure on DP. Now his daughters refuse to visit, yet again this is somehow both DPs and my fault. I have to say I am heartily sick of everyone and if it meant also having DP out of my life just to get out of being the extended families punch bag then so be it.

It does, however, sadly mean that yet another child is growing up without his father, our young son who also has special needs. It is a huge strain on me having to do this single handedly, yet it is still better than putting my family through all the strain. DP is miserable, however he cannot still stop taking his guilt out on me or see that he is still trying to as he says ‘provide for two families’ (all his daughters are adults now) or ‘abandon his daughters’ (his daughters refuse to see us but he sees them every day outside the house).

I would actually now see comments from a DP as ‘being stuck in the middle’ talking about us and their Ex wives as a big RED flag. It means that as you say lifeafter40 that they are still stuck in a relationship with their Ex rather than having their own separate relationship with their kids that is not dependent on a child or Ex controlling it.

Magda I would also echo lifeafter40 too - it is just unacceptable that you are on your own for Christmas. You remind me of yourself, being too appeasing will only delay the inevitable changes that your DP and step kids need to make. Yes they need to change! Because you are bending around them and so is your child - waiting for him to give you scraps of his time.

I’m so sorry it’s like this - it’s awful living like it.

Sorry, remind me of myself!

bananas thank you too for your post. Its if funny, isn't it, how our DP are similar. Mine is also the most caring, emphatic, attentive man I've ever met. He is a fantastic cook and will do everything around the house. But there is this thing about his children, which I don't even fully understand what it is. I do think it is really bad for the kids to be put in the position of a 'judge' - whom they like, whom they don't. If they didn't like their full brother and sister, no one would say: Ah. OK. You don't have to see them, let's build a separate house and have two breakfasts for you, our dear children, two dinners, etc. What else do you possibly want us to do for you?

What is really surprising for me in your story is that having a kid with you didn't change him. If kids takes priority over everything, then your joint child as the youngest should take priority.

I think our partners would benefit from good therapy. I have a DS from a failed relationship, he went through our divorce. It is already something that will be with him all his life, no one and nothing can change that. But all people have their kind of traumas, one can't live a life without. And what matters is how you deal with it, and how you show your child a way to be able to live a full life and have a capacity to love and support someone and to build a meaningful relationship after a collapse. I think that would be much much more important for the daughters of your DP than seeing him every day outside of your house. If their father can't build a relationship and you have to raise your DS on your own, it is another level deep-lasting trauma on top of the one they already have, of divorce of their parents.

I think parents' attention to children is important, but how parents live their own life is also of huge importance.

Is it all decided with your DP, or there is still hope? I guess he might have had a problem with his dad (lost him early) - and is trying to give what he sees he himself missed to his daughters. He might need to invest into psychotherapy. AT least this is what I am telling my DP for now, let's see where our story goes.. I fear it might go your way

istherelife You have a very secure outlook that I think will serve your own DS very well in life. You are right, we cannot hide our children from trauma such as divorce, however we can be grown ups and give them support but also a role model of how to live.

I’ve been thinking about that a lot recently, and I’m basing my actions more and more on what I’d like my children to learn from and see. It is more powerful for them to see me acting with integrity than me just giving them whatever they want. What kind of parenting is that? Not parenting at all, it gives no framework, no strong sense of how to maintain relationships or a family unit.

I did try for a very long time with my DP, we went to counselling, together and separately. Together it did help, for the first time he was confronted with another perspective. One that was not biased. However it was short lived. I’ve just become the scapegoat and I think at the heart of it - I and my son were always treated as outsiders, even in the home.

You are right, him having a child by me should have really set the priorities up to be more balanced. However, a baby can’t demand or ask. His daughter who lived with us at the time, was getting all the attention and increasingly antagonistic to me, my son and DP. All the while I kept trying to get DP to be more involved with our toddler, and do more stuff together. We never had the opportunity to gel as our own unit, let alone as a blended family unit. I set up family things, including my step daughters, but it was very draining as they just hogged DP, or looked bored. I let them choose the activities. Or treated them to meals out. Some of it was OK. However it was all skewed to their needs and we took second place, all the time.

Eventually I realised something wasn’t right with our toddler, and was desperately navigating his very difficult behaviour with getting him assessed for special needs. My DSD was getting all the attention and totally draining me, DP was blaming me for everything, and not helping or even aware of issues with our toddler. As by that point anything I said was minimised, but anything his Ex or daughters said was maximised. If that makes sense. In reality his DSDs were fine, but our toddler really needed a lot of help and I was the only one providing it. It took me separating with DP to finally set the wheels in motion for our son - as I finally had the headspace away from all the relentless drama around his daughters.

It’s still like that now unfortunately. DP will not let himself be happy with me, our child and my son. He won’t give us time, no holidays, no time together just bonding. As he harks back constantly to his ‘girls not being there’.

I think they must be getting something out of being like this. It’s the only thing I can think of, as everyone is losing so much. For my DP he is getting the full feeling of still being in a family unit with his Ex Wife I think. More so, the more he disagrees with me and the more he will turn to his daughters or their mother to talk about decisions. It reunites a bond. As an ‘add on’ to his life, not a partner, he gets comfort, without marriage, and he has a set of allies to fall back to if anything gets problematic with me.

I really do hope that lifebegins that you survive this intact. It is worth really trying to get past it. If your DP can reposition his ‘axis’ as it were. That’s the main point. It is NOT disloyal to his kids to be forming a unit with you that works, is stable and respectful. I kept trying to tell my DP this, ex DP. I kept saying, I am an OK step Mum, you are an OK Dad, there is nothing we have to feel guilty for with your daughters. If they do not want to fit around us, then you actually have to let them go. Still see them, still do things if you like, but not to the detriment of our family. They are welcome inside out ‘circle’, even if it means I stay a little in the background. However, if they are rude, ignore me, bitch about us, then that is negative for our relationship and we have to draw a line together.

Can your DP do that? Can your DP be a grown up and survive the possible wrath of his children? I do hope so. Because his kids need to learn and see what a respectful loving relationship looks like - he needs to show them by being like that with you.

Hi everyone - some really amazing posts here & I personally have really benefited from reading them. @Bananasinpyjamas11 & @istherelifeafter40 you are both so right in everything that you've said & both your stories really resonate with me & are helping me articulate a lot of what's been bothering me.
I know this is a big generalization but I'm beginning to think that men with kids just can't commit - I don't know why they get so locked into their exs & kids but they do & that guilt or whatever it is ruins everything.
My dp is same as yours - kind, loving etc. but his inability to establish a different unit with his kids post divorce is going to be his downfall & try as he might he just cannot seem to see what he's doing.
I tried to prioritize a new set up; vacated the top floor of my house (massive room with huge separate bathroom & den area) & bought beds & furniture for all three of his kids. I've tried to include them in things and make them feel welcome when they're here but they just will not meet me or my kids half way. They're not rude; just totally disinterested (elder two) or hyper critical (younger one). When they're here dp doesn't want to adjust to any new way of doing things as that's "their routine"; so my teen who uses the den has to vacate it so they can all watch sport or a movie. Now my teen has to compromise - I get that - but like others have said no effort is made to watch anything he wants to watch & he's basically a stranger in his own home on these nights. I've also respected their need for alone time with their dad & deliberately don't go to certain things so they can have one on one time.
I've now just sort of given up making any effort about anything & now dp just tends to see them in the house he's kept in the town where they live.
Do I like this? No, but the other way is too hard. And as has been mentioned I'm starting to be blamed for having any opinion on this that doesn't think his kids are wonderful & hard done by because he doesn't live with them full time.
But yes, they are entitled & selfish - there I've said it. In the three years I've known them they have never bought either dp or me a birthday present. They have never bought me a Christmas present. I don't think it's up to dp to push them on this & have told him that (maybe wrongly) I think it should come naturally. My kids just automatically buy dp stuff for occasions such as above.
I get change is hard for dp & his kids but it's also been very hard on my kids as it's their home that's being shared & they have really made efforts to be open & hospitable.
I really love my dp but I am really struggling as to know where to go from here because his little unit with his kids just seems impenetrable. I get days where I think it wol be fine & just let them have their time alone together - but then I know I'm getting the scraps & my kids are getting a dynamic I don't fully approve of. I don't want to be glue to dps hip but nor do I want to feel like I'm endlessly dating someone who says he wants to get married!?!
@swingofthings - you're so right about dps ex - he's the prize that she does not want to get go & the kids are used to constantly reinforce that they are a family & I'm not.
@Bananasinpyjamas11 - I'm genuinely very sorry to hear how hard it's been for you. What you're dealing with must be so difficult. My hormones tell me I'd love a child with dp but I will never do it as I know I would end up raising a child by myself as dp is just not capable of prioritizing anything or anyone alongside his kids.
I hope things get easier for you .
Again sorry for rambling rant - I'm just a bit all over the place at the moment.

Have no idea why so much of that is in bold!?!

bananas I wish you lots of strength and lots of good fortune for you and your children! Life is just long and so complex. I really wish happiness comes your way, and things change, maybe from some unexpected angle. You sound like a very good person and it is so sad life has been so hard. Lots of hugs

Oh magda you seem to have done everything that you could to welcome and nurture a positive blended family. You sound like a lovely person who has stretched herself and contorted around your DP and step kids who are like rocks, immovable and impenetrable.

I feel very sad for your child who gets pushed out. It’s much harder when you have one, who has no allies, with three siblings who are grouping together, disrespecting your role, and excluding your child on a regular basis.

Being disinterested is quite a powerful negative force, worse possibly than being critical. At least you can negotiate with criticism. Indifference is brushing you out of the picture and there is zero chance of any relationship, compromise or harmony. And we’re talking about our homes here. The one place that should be our bedrock to cope with outside stress. What can you do?

I’ve seen men either not handle a second family, and put their energy still into their first. Like they made one commitment and can’t another. Or the opposite, have kind of run away from the first while they were not ready or too immature - only to meet a younger woman much later and have more kids - only now appreciate what they missed, and get very hands on with the second family instead. Where’s the middle ground?! My DP says a lot that he feels totally used up with his first kids, very dependent ex wife etc - and nothing left to give.

It doesn’t sound like you are all over the place. It sounds as if you are confronting the issues, which is so hard but good for you. I see so many SMs go into their role with such optimism, only to be badly knocked back. You’ll find your way I’m sure. Plenty of us totally understand.

lifeafter40 thank you so, so much for your kind words. It means a lot to have a stranger give me some validation and support. I am determined to give my kids and me a fun and good life despite the difficulties. Tbh with more distance from DPs children and Ex the better my kids and me have fared. It’s been pretty positive even dealing with a break up, it’s the right thing to do. I hope you find a better course yourself you also sound lovely!