Making Arrangements In The Other Parents Contact Time

[SnowWhiteWinter]

Hi everyone, I have another thread too but have some other issues that I'd like to pose to mumsnetters. Everyone gave very honest advice (even if it was a little harsh at times) on my other thread (which I will update as soon as we have an update) and I (and my DP) would very much appreciate some honest opinions here too, and ideas of what to do etc.

My DSD (3) is starting a new preschool in January. She has been on the waiting list for over a year and was finally offered a place in October. It's so much better in every way than her current one, which has just had a "satisfactory" Ofsted report, and this one is "outstanding" - not that Ofsted reports are everything but it just adds to the list of reasons why the new one is better. It's bigger, more activities, better facilities, nicer location etc.

DSD's mum doesn't want her to change preschool but decided to leave it until 2 weeks ago to email DP to tell him. She likes the old one and wants her to stay there. We now have a very awkward situation as she is already enrolled in the new one and deposit is paid. For those of you who have not read my other thread, DSD's mum has only been having her and my other DSD on a 50/50 basis for the last 6/7 months. Before that, she was only seeing them about 1 night per week for around 2 years. During this time things like pre schools and schools were considered, visited, chosen and applied for - she wasn't interested in what choices were made, didn't want to visit any etc, so my DP and I did this, until 6 mths ago she had never been to see DSD's preschool. There is no residency order in place, no court involvement so far, which sort of makes things harder as when DSD's parents can't agree I guess it's a bit of a stalemate!

She hasn't actually given any particular reason for wanting to stop the move just "I like the current one". DP has asked her to visit the new one so she can see how great it is, she won't, she also doesn't want the prospectus we picked up for her, she just will not discuss it. DSD knows she is going to the new pre school after Xmas, she has been and visited with us a couple of times already too.

So my 1st question is What do we do? Cancel the new better preschool because her mum doesn't want her going there, even though she has been waiting for a space for so long, knows that's where she is going and we have paid deposit and we believe it's much better (hence the long waiting list).

My 2nd question is a little bit last minute. Next week, during the DSD's time with their mother, the new pre school is having their "induction" session for all new January starters. The children meet the staff and key workers and all the other new starters, parents have coffee and introduce themselves etc. This is only done once and unfortunately falls on a day when DSD's are with their mum. DP has written to her about 5 weeks ago and explained this all and proposed we take DSD to it (it's only 2 hrs). DSD's mum is at work that particular day, so DSD will be at pre school all day that day anyway so we would pick her up, take her for two hours and drop her back to preschool. DSD's mum has said no, DP cannot take her out of preschool for 2 hours as it is her week with the children.

Now as there is no court order in place DP knows he can very easily just go and get DSD and take her and return her but he is torn as to what to do. He has never once planned something during their time with their mum or asked to take them to anything during that time- and as she is working it doesn't make a difference to her anyway as DSD will be at pre school. He has asked their mum if she could get the time off work to take her instead of us, or we all go together, but she has ignored this possible idea. So what do you guys think? It is for DSD's pre school education but it's certainly not compulsory, it would just be very nice for her and I would think helpful for DSD to go. DP doesn't want to cause problems or act unreasonably during their mums contact time, but equally we know she is saying no because she doesn't want her to start at the new preschool at all (she may have other reasons but she hasn't mentioned any).

All advice greatly received, some of you have so much experience as step parents and of step family situations perhaps someone has been in a similar situation? Part of me just wants to say to DP, forget it, let her mum make the decisions just to keep the peace.

[pinguthepenguin]

Why in the name of god do you relentlessly ask for advice, when you never EVER accept it?

[sanityseeker75]

I am sorry Poppy but I do not think that is the fairest thing to say - although I know that lots of people will share in that view. I have also had my DSC around from very early age (DSS was younger than 1 when EW access was set up and also DSD (born with cleft palate and hair lip) has had several ops in which I have been there (alongside mom and dad) and she has always come home with us (me and DH) to recover straight from hospital. I think that if I had adopted a baby then I would be able to claim I loved it as much as my DS but because another woman is involved in their lives then I have to say I love them but not to much? Also it is very common for mothers to struggle to bond with babies and often takes a lot of time and support to develop this bond (infact I am almost inclined to think that perhaps the Mom in this case had PND depression and as a result did not bond with baby and instead of having support to get through it was pushed out of her childrens lives or took the easier route - big assumption I know). I think it is unfair to judge as nobody truly knows how anyone else feels and if that is how snow feels then who are we to say that she is wrong?

That said Snow I am not surprised that people inc me feel slightly frustrated by your thread. It is fine to love all the children in your life but you do not have the monopoly on them. They DESERVE a chance at a relationship with their mom.

On your other post you said that DP was trying to get mom to have them one of the nights in the week on your week and vice versa. I do not agree that this is truly what you want and that this was for the children as you must of known that that contact arrangement would also fail because of the school drop off and pick up point with school.

I think that the reason the DSC get upset is because your own separation anxiety is rubbing off on them and this is truly unforgivable. You have painted a picture in your head of this monster of a mother, it doesn't matter that she is now trying to put right issues in the past you just will not forgive her her failings and actually it is not your place to forgive it is her childrens to be able to accept mom for who she is.

As far as preschool is concern - there is not a school out there that would not have a separate induction given the circumstances during your contact time. Do they know you are step mom and that mom is involved in DSD care? Do the children call you mom?

I think if you had your way then mom would just do one and have no access to the children. This will NEVER happen, even in relationships where there has been abuse parents are still given some access even if it is supervised only.

I wish that you could see that what you and your DP are doing to the children could be seen as just as damaging as what you claim mom has done. I even think that it is you that is struggling not to see the children in her contact week rather than your DP because you fear that if they build a relationship with mom then they may not love you? Children have the ability to love more than one person you know, that is not just for adults.

[sanityseeker75]

Sorry Poppy I meant previous post before you elaborated not last one!

[sanityseeker75]

He is going to take DSD tomorrow as he still really wants her to go to the new preschool. She iwll be taken from her current preschool, round the corner to her new one and will be returned within 2 hrs. It will make no difference at all to contact time as her mum is at work anyway and he feels its the best decision in DD's best interests.

My guess is snow is there as we type :(

[pinguthepenguin]

I would love to see how ex and OP would react to mum simply lifting dd out of school on HIS time. My guess is that mum would have hell to pay, but lemme guess OP, this is different, right?

[bunchamunchycrunchycarrots]

My guess is snow is there as we type

And the worst part of this situation is that when they have been to this induction day, they'll be even more convinced of it's fantastic facilities, and become more entranched in their determination to move that poor child, knowing the risk that it poses for her long term future/stability/relationship with all the adults around her.

[bunchamunchycrunchycarrots]

entrenched not entranched.

[millie30]

OP have you told the new preschool that DSD has a mother that she lives with half the time who needs to give her input? Or are you just pretending that she doesn't exist?

[allnewtaketwo]

I'm just trying to imagine the conversation with DSD2's mother collects her from nursery today/tomorrow.

Mum: "Did you have a good day at nursery? What did you do?"
DSD2: "I went with Dad and SM to see my new pre-school"

Mum is then understandably furious. DSD2 is alarmed because clearly mum is angry.

Does this sound like a good situation to put a 3 year old in who you supposedly care a great deal about?

[NotaDisneyMum]

OP have you told the new preschool that DSD has a mother that she lives with half the time who needs to give her input? Or are you just pretending that she doesn't exist?

Millie I imagine that if the OP has been at the pre-school this morning with her DP and DSD, then she has made sure that she told them about Mum today.
When she comes back to this thread, she can justify her DP's decision not to tell them earlier because Mum wasn't interested, and assure everyone that he had every intention of passing on his ex's details to the pre-school today.

As I said, my ex did this to me - registered DD with a dentist where she was receiving treatment, and sent me emails "updating" me as to the treatment and decisions he had made. When I called the dentist themselves, you could hear the stunned silence when I introduced myself as DD's Mum - as far as their records showed, DD had a Dad, and a stepmum, but no mention of a Mum - let alone one who she lived with 50% of the time and whose household was in receipt of CB.

That incident alone provided me with evidence that could have been used by a solicitor/barrister had I wanted the court to decide on DD's residency. More importantly, it damaged the trust I had placed in exH that he was committed to shared parenting - it was clear from his actions that he was quite prepared to exclude me from DD's welfare and care. It made me far less inclined to work with him to co-parent DD, as I was unable to take what he was saying at face value and was always wondering what he hadn't told me.

Perhaps I was wrong to do that. Perhaps for DD's sake, I should have accepted that exH was perfectly entitled to do these things and continue to trust him to do the right thing regardless, but it's not always as easy as it sounds to do those things.
The OP is human too. She has become very attached to her DSD, is neglecting her own DC's in favour of them, and is at risk of enormous pain as they grow up and reject her (anyone who has read "Stepmonster" by Wednesday Martin knows why that rejection is more or less inevitable at some stage).

[PoppyPrincess]

NADM - I've seen you mention about Stepmonster a few times, when I read about it it said she hadn't got kids of her own, do you think I'd still benefit from reading it as I have my own kids? But you do don't you? So I suppose that answers the question.

I definitely think there's no excuse for not putting her Mum's details down on the forms. DS only sees his dad at weekends so won't ever be picking him up/dropping him off etc but I still put his details down as his father and put me, his dad, DP and my mum down as emergency contacts.

I get the impression that their mum is just an inconvenience to OP and she'd rather she just left her nice little family to live happily ever after.

And I do think that it sounds like their mum was possibly suffering with PND, I have it myself and I'm sure most people have no idea, it's different to other depression I've experienced in the past, I don't even cry but sometimes I feel like I can't cope and I feel like I want to run away and start a new life. Isn't that basically what she did?

[NotaDisneyMum]

NADM - I've seen you mention about Stepmonster a few times, when I read about it it said she hadn't got kids of her own, do you think I'd still benefit from reading it as I have my own kids? But you do don't you? So I suppose that answers the question.

Definitely worth it - it was such a lightbulb moment for me!

It's not just about her own situation, in fact, she only uses that as a way to put what she is writing about into context - it is sort of like a summary of a lot of research done into step-mothers across the world written in a way that is accessible and makes sense. It details the reasons for the WSM portrayal in fairy tales (did you know that in many of the original stories, it was a mother that was the evil character, not a step-mother?) and even describes the findings of studies into the social dynamics involving step-mothers within isolated tribal communities - WSM's even exist in the Amazonian jungle!

It has helped me no end in coming to terms with the distant/fragile relationship I have with DP's parents, and how come friends and family who know me well act with horror and alarm when I am anything other than exclusively positive about the SDC

[allnewtaketwo]

NADM you're making me want a copy of that book!

[allnewtaketwo]

What did it way about relationship with inlaws? (sorry thread hijack but am very interested)

[bunchamunchycrunchycarrots]

Poppy I agree there is more to the ex's behaviour here than the OP is willing to acknowledge. It doesn't even have to be PND or whatever, or anything major for that matter. The thing is, there are all manor of mental issues/illnesses that can manifest themselves in odd and peculiar ways, meaning someone's behaviour can be interpreted one way, but actually mean something completely different.

For example, my ex has little to do with day to day stuff with our DD, I've made all major decisions regarding health, schools, childcare, hobbies etc. basically every aspect of our DD's life has fallen to me to sort out. I used to get really pissed off that I couldn't engage with him on anything, couldn't get an opinion on what might be good/not good in whatever I was trying to do for DD. It's pretty wearing to be the only responsible parent, and it's nice to have someone else also take part in those 'big' and small decisions every day. It caused a fair few arguments betweens us, relations deteriorated and he went from occasionally seeing DD for an over night every week to months in between seeing DD whenever I said or did something that he felt was a criticism when I saw myself as trying to 'get through' to him, provoke a reaction that would mean he'd suddenly realise what he was missing out on, what DD was missing out on and that he really needed to 'grow up' and start being responsible. Nothing worked. Not a thing.

I eventually backed off, got on with just doing what was needed for DD, and eventually (it took 2 years in total) he started making more of an effort. He is still not what you could ever call a 'model' parent but his relationship with our DD is good, DD adores her dad (because she's oblivious to the conflict we went through) and that is far more important to me than anything.

The reasons for my ex's behaviour are complex, and after 2 years of trying to figure him out, I came to this conclusion - his own childhood was not ideal, and he baulks at having any 'grown up responsibility as a result. It's not the way many people who have a less than ideal childhood react when they become a parent, but it explained a lot about why he felt able to walk away the way he did. The pressure he felt weighed far more on him than the desire to see and spend time with our DD on a regular basis. He also felt that I was doing such a great job with DD that he really didn't need to do anything so why bother? I wasn't a controlling, over bearing person who put him down or excluded him but he was happy that the responsibility he feared so much, was being well handled by me, on my own, and he had therefore no reason to comply with the expected 'social norms' I had of him. He has a strong, almost pathalogical aversion to responsibility of any kind (to the point he regularly gets himself into difficult situations as a result) because of his past, his upbringing, and his reaction to our split. I simply need to accept that he is who he is, and move on, because trying to make him be someone he isn't won't get me anywhere, and just breeds resentment.

One thing that I've learned is not to hang onto what happened in the past, and to not let what did happen affect how things are now. I hold no grudge against my ex, he's not the ideal parent in my eyes, but he does something right because our DD absolutely adores him and often tells me he's her favourite parent (despite me being the constant in her life since birth, never wavering, never letting her down). I don't feel hurt by that, or angry that he's achieved that despite what he did in the past, but I'm actually delighted that DD has the sort of relationship that she gets so much from, even though it isn't what anyone would think of as the 'ideal' where a separated parent is concerned. I'm delighted for her because my DD's happiness and stability is paramount for me, as is her right to a relationship with her dad, even if it is on his terms. His terms aren't what I could live with for myself given the personal standards I have for the sort of parent I want to be, and want for my DD. But, I realised a long time ago I cannot make him be the sort of parent I think my DD should have. SHe has him, he is her parent, and we both just accept him for who he is, warts and all.

My ex didn't have a break down, he didn't show many signs of mental health problems. He just stopped answering my texts, stopped calling, refused to engage with me on any level. The impression he gave me was very similar to what the OP describes her DP has with his ex. But, we are still here, the moon hasn't yet fallen out of the sky, and things are good for us because we have all moved on. Developing the ability to step back from my own frustration with the behaviour of my ex, and to not let every little thing he did or didn't do, bother me is how we got here. I highly recommend it!

[sanityseeker75]

And I do think that it sounds like their mum was possibly suffering with PND, I have it myself and I'm sure most people have no idea, it's different to other depression I've experienced in the past, I don't even cry but sometimes I feel like I can't cope and I feel like I want to run away and start a new life. Isn't that basically what she did?

I did have PND but didn't really see it at the time and couldn't understand what this magic "bond" was all about. It took ages for anyone to recognise that it was PND that had been the problem - and to be honest I sort of just closed in on my self and never told anyone how I was feeling.

From what I can gather poppy she did go away after a couple of days conversation and when she was gone H moved out with kids to his moms. Lets face it there is more than just OP and her H side of the story but we are never going to know moms side of the story.

I have asked DH to buy me Stepmonster for Christmas :)

[NotaDisneyMum]

I think there are some mums (and dads) who are prepared to walk away from their DC's and absolve themselves of responsibility - but it's usually possible to tell if this is just the way they are, or whether there is something else influencing their behaviour.

My ex was (and is) an absolutely devoted Dad; and yet when we separated, the impact of his behaviour on DD was horrendous - he just didn't think about her at all.
I could have written him off as a lousy father, just like all the others who let their DC's down, but I knew that his behaviour was out of character and that when he was thinking clearly, he wouldn't do that to her. I remember sobbing to the mediator after another failed session that "this wasn't exDH", that "he is unwell" that "he loves DD, so why is he doing this?"

The OP's DP will know if his ex's behaviour - abandoning her babies and not showing interest - is out of character or not. He presumably decided that she was a good mum to their first DD, as they went on to have another child together, but only he can say if this pattern of behaviour was evident in their relationship or not.
The fact that he has been actively encouraging his ex to take more responsibility and get involved in their DD's lives again suggests to me that he knows that this isn't really her - I just think it is shame that for whatever reason, he refuses to help her more and is instead taking advantage of the situation, because it is their DC's that are suffering.

[sanityseeker75]

The fact that he has been actively encouraging his ex to take more responsibility and get involved in their DD's lives again suggests to me that he knows that this isn't really her - I just think it is shame that for whatever reason, he refuses to help her more and is instead taking advantage of the situation, because it is their DC's that are suffering.

I agree NADM and I think that is the frustrating part about all of this.

My Ex refuses to have contact with me and will not even acknowledge me in the street - all communication is by text. He leaves all parenting decisions to me but I still think he is a good dad because he trys to do the best he can with DS (not always how I would do things) and DS knows that Dad loves him very much regardless of how much DH and I do on a practical level for him.

I agree there are really shit parents out there but these are usually the ones who have no contact and also never try to be involved in childrens lives and I know people who have this situation, I also know though people who say their kids have really shit dads who do not want to know but actually the mom has made it practically impossible for them to have contact and dragged it out through courts until the dad can no longer afford to pay but mom kept getting legal aid - I know that the guidlines around this have now changed.

I just think all the kids deserve to have everyone try to work in their best interests and I am convinced this is not happening here on some level.

[bunchamunchycrunchycarrots]

I agree NADM, I think my frustration with my ex was also based on the 'WTF is he doing' reaction, knowing just how much DD had meant to him, and how good a dad he was before we split. I genuinely couldn't get my head around why he went so long between contact, knowing that he did love her, and they got on like a house on fire when they were together. It caused all sorts of feelings in me - anger, frustration, guilt, sadness for DD, confusion, and just hurt really. But I then realised that how I was reacting to that wasn't helping the situation, or improving it, and I needed to disengage from him and the choices he was making. It took some of the pressure off him, and while he was 'clearing his head' as it were, I made sure DD's life was busy, full of people who loved her etc. I always hoped he'd come round, and now, I'm glad I backed off and just got on with focussing on my DD and what was best for her, not on what I wanted, or what I thought my ex should do/say/not do/not say etc.

[SnowWhiteWinter]

Well, we didn't take DSD to her new preschool today. I know most of you think that is a good thing but I feel a bit sad for DSD, she would have loved it there and it seems that we will have to just agree to her mums decision that she wants her to stay at her old preschool. She has still not given a reason, refuses to discuss pros and cons of each with DP and won't even go and visit. She's been telling DSD that her new preschool would be rubbish and the kids there are mean and the teachers aren't nice, so DP decided if she's going to keep that up she is going to make DSD upset about it and she will hate going there. So she's not going. I admit I'm disappointed for DSD and disappointed her mum could use her emotions like that to get her own way :(

As for other stuff, her mum emailed DP today, insisting that if he want the girls to see her at Christmas he should be willing to drop them there Xmas day PM and bring them back Boxing day PM. He is working boxing day so I will have to be the one who goes and collect them, which I really don't want to bloody do as I can't see any reason why she can't make one of the journeys to see her own babies at Christmas. She has "family" round, well so do we! We have two families (mine and DP's) to visit and an extra set of DC with their own family and Xmas plans too, one journey each would have been fair. But I already know I will give in and do the 2 hr round trip as otherwise DSD's will be left at hers an extra night during their normal time with us and I would rather have them at home with us than win that argument.

Millie - I'm not sure why it is relevant, but yes I did inform the preschool (when we registered her) of her family arrangements 50/50 with her mum. They only asked for one address and "parent/carer living at this address" plus an emergency contact to collect her in case she was ill etc. I was emergency contact as live round the corner and SAHM, would have been pointless putting their mum as she works FT and is nearly an hours drive away. We did give them her address name and number though for their records although they said they didn't need it. Not that it matters now. For things like DSD2's school application they ask on the forms for resident parents details and have separate boxes for any non resident parent or other person who has PR, so the LEA have all their mums details too. Eldest DSD's school have been provided with a letter by DP detailing contact arrangements and what days the children stay at each home of course. They have only one address on file, which is ours.

Disney... I think I will buy and read "Stepmonster" it seems to be very much recommended by lots of SM's!

[SnowWhiteWinter]

Should add though, should there be an emergency at preschool or school then of course DP or I would contact their mum immediately! It's just practically, I am much closer than she is as emergency contact for "non" emergencies like feeling a bit sick or running a slight temp etc.

[purpleroses]

Can see that you're sad, if you thought she'd be happier there, but she'll probably be fine where she is, with friiends that she's made for the next two terms. And things always change around a bit when they start school anyway.

Be aware that the emergency contact isn't just about who can pick them up if they're unwell - it's also about who has PR and can consent to medical treatment, if they should be injured or something. I would assume it'll be their dad and mum who have PR, not you, so best make sure they have everyone's contact details and are aware who's who. IME schools are quite good at asking the child direct which is the best parent to ring if they just need to go home early as they're unwell.

[allnewtaketwo]

Erm I work full time and an hour away from DS's school but there is EVERY reason why I am down as emergency contact, as is DH. We are his mother and father.

Btw how do you know mum has been saying these things about the preschool

[pinguthepenguin]

Interesting that you lament about the 2 hour round trip on Xmas day, yet mum does it 5 days a week on her week?

[bunchamunchycrunchycarrots]

Snow, you might ignore me but I'll say it anyway - I think a massive part of the problem you are in is the huge part you are playing in enabling both your DSD's parents to behave in the way they are doing. You doing the driving/pick up based on a demand from the mum, while the DSDs are with her but on your DP's time, while he is working? But you'll do it anyway as you'd rather they spent time with you than one more day with their mum? You have conceded that your DSD should stay at the preschool where she is, but it's all about her mum refusing 'for no reason' and how she's filling her head with negative stuff about the preschool etc. I'm sorry but that is a really fucked up situation to be in, even though you are doing this willingly and with gusto as you 'love your DSD like they were your own'. You are taking the fact that you've had to go along with the ex's wishes here, really personally, and the resentment you have for her is oozing through your post.

You were way too involved in this whole process, as it was never down to you to do all that you did to try and persuade the ex here to go along with this 'plan'. You invested way too much in trying to get this to happen, and that is also a major problem with the situation you are in, in this 'blended family' you have. All the talk about how you knew the current preschool is 'pretty crap' because you used to work in one, is influence and interference your DP doesn't need when he has to deal with an ex he has little chance of persuading to go along with such plans. You have effectively 'cranked up' the pressure in a situation where he would have otherwise been able to just shrug off because he'd have known there was virutally no way he could get his ex to agree i.e. he'd have been able to determine that this is a battle not worth picking with his ex. That is a very restrictive way to bring your own children up, but it's his reality and he needs to be able to deal with that. Not be egged on about how fantastic a preschool this is, and it's really in DSD's best interests etc. You need to be wary of what you say and how you say it, in a situation where what you say can spur him on to have yet another spat with his ex, prolonging the conflict, and meaning that he'll not get to the point where he can change his response to his ex's behaviour. Now, rather than just putting it behind you and move on, because really there is nothing you can do in this situation given that you have no rights whatsoever, you seem to want to hold onto that resentment. You need to just drop it, not think about it, and just move on without dwelling on 'how sad' it is your DSD is missing out on this wonderful preschool. For your sake, your DP's sake and especially your DSDs' sakes.

There is nothing wrong in wanting the best for children you care about, but the boundaries here are so blurred and trampled all over that it's impossible for you to see the wood from the trees. Let your DP do what is needed to make things right for his children, and leave him to it.