Making Arrangements In The Other Parents Contact Time

[SnowWhiteWinter]

Hi everyone, I have another thread too but have some other issues that I'd like to pose to mumsnetters. Everyone gave very honest advice (even if it was a little harsh at times) on my other thread (which I will update as soon as we have an update) and I (and my DP) would very much appreciate some honest opinions here too, and ideas of what to do etc.

My DSD (3) is starting a new preschool in January. She has been on the waiting list for over a year and was finally offered a place in October. It's so much better in every way than her current one, which has just had a "satisfactory" Ofsted report, and this one is "outstanding" - not that Ofsted reports are everything but it just adds to the list of reasons why the new one is better. It's bigger, more activities, better facilities, nicer location etc.

DSD's mum doesn't want her to change preschool but decided to leave it until 2 weeks ago to email DP to tell him. She likes the old one and wants her to stay there. We now have a very awkward situation as she is already enrolled in the new one and deposit is paid. For those of you who have not read my other thread, DSD's mum has only been having her and my other DSD on a 50/50 basis for the last 6/7 months. Before that, she was only seeing them about 1 night per week for around 2 years. During this time things like pre schools and schools were considered, visited, chosen and applied for - she wasn't interested in what choices were made, didn't want to visit any etc, so my DP and I did this, until 6 mths ago she had never been to see DSD's preschool. There is no residency order in place, no court involvement so far, which sort of makes things harder as when DSD's parents can't agree I guess it's a bit of a stalemate!

She hasn't actually given any particular reason for wanting to stop the move just "I like the current one". DP has asked her to visit the new one so she can see how great it is, she won't, she also doesn't want the prospectus we picked up for her, she just will not discuss it. DSD knows she is going to the new pre school after Xmas, she has been and visited with us a couple of times already too.

So my 1st question is What do we do? Cancel the new better preschool because her mum doesn't want her going there, even though she has been waiting for a space for so long, knows that's where she is going and we have paid deposit and we believe it's much better (hence the long waiting list).

My 2nd question is a little bit last minute. Next week, during the DSD's time with their mother, the new pre school is having their "induction" session for all new January starters. The children meet the staff and key workers and all the other new starters, parents have coffee and introduce themselves etc. This is only done once and unfortunately falls on a day when DSD's are with their mum. DP has written to her about 5 weeks ago and explained this all and proposed we take DSD to it (it's only 2 hrs). DSD's mum is at work that particular day, so DSD will be at pre school all day that day anyway so we would pick her up, take her for two hours and drop her back to preschool. DSD's mum has said no, DP cannot take her out of preschool for 2 hours as it is her week with the children.

Now as there is no court order in place DP knows he can very easily just go and get DSD and take her and return her but he is torn as to what to do. He has never once planned something during their time with their mum or asked to take them to anything during that time- and as she is working it doesn't make a difference to her anyway as DSD will be at pre school. He has asked their mum if she could get the time off work to take her instead of us, or we all go together, but she has ignored this possible idea. So what do you guys think? It is for DSD's pre school education but it's certainly not compulsory, it would just be very nice for her and I would think helpful for DSD to go. DP doesn't want to cause problems or act unreasonably during their mums contact time, but equally we know she is saying no because she doesn't want her to start at the new preschool at all (she may have other reasons but she hasn't mentioned any).

All advice greatly received, some of you have so much experience as step parents and of step family situations perhaps someone has been in a similar situation? Part of me just wants to say to DP, forget it, let her mum make the decisions just to keep the peace.

[MagicLlama]

You need to think of the long game here, which is what you are failing to do.

• Mum has said no to moving pre schools.
  
• You & Dp are ignoring this and moving her anyway
  
• This is deliberately because you think she will get into school 2 on your list (whereas ith NADM advice you could likely guarantee a place in school 1, making the move irrelvant and pointless).
  
• Placement in school 2 leaves mum unable to maintain current 50/50 contact
  
• Mum makes application to court to move DSD2 to school near her house
  
• Court looks at behaviour of parents
  
• Court sees your DP deliberately undermining & sidelining mum
  

Its not good.

As I said a friend lost his 50/50 share because of exact behaviour like that. I honestly think that for 2 terms of preschool you are taking silly risks.

[NotaDisneyMum]

Your DP has a very real chance of securing his DD2 a place at DD1's school if he wanted to. He has a choice.

[SnowWhiteWinter]

PoppyPrincess - She could apply but it would be a fraudulent application as the DSd's "registered address" is our house, for doctors, dentist, school etc and CB is registered to our house too. Honestly, I don't think she would. She hasn't ever said she wants the girls more than 50/50 and isn't really coping with it as it is. We have to do lots of the dropping offs and collecting and "helping" her. If she took them to a school near her, we wouldn't be able to.

[MagicLlama]

but he has HAD a response

She has said she doesnt agree with the move. Thats a response. It might not be a response you like, but it is still a response.

[SnowWhiteWinter]

Sorry, I did read you last post Disney...

Yes, Dp and I will try all we can to get DSD2 in there. We have no reason to not want her to as DSD1 is there anyway and really she shouldn't be moved now she is settled there as she is very emotional and doesn't do change very well. Do is going to call the LEA tomorrow to get some info about what is classed as exceptional circumstances and if we can be labelled as one! :)

[SnowWhiteWinter]

Magiclaama - Yes, she responded about the change of preschool, she hasn't about many other things and it worries DP that making decisions alone that should be joint will go against him. Social services "lady" says as long as he makes reasonable attempts to communicate with her but she ignore him then he wouldn't be looked down on for making decisions himself.

[MagicLlama]

But on this occasion, and this post was about the preschool, she hasnt ignored him, she has responsed and he doesnt like her response and so has decided to ignore it.

That will be looked badly upon.

I also have to say that what SS has said goes directly against my experience in court, and that of a number of other people who have also been through the family courts.

[SnowWhiteWinter]

I think the preschool thing has annoyed my DP and I so much because she has literally only just said "no".. She knew she was on the waiting list, she knew when the place was offered, she declined the opportunity to look around, see the prospectus or anything else, knew were had taken DSD to visit her new preschool etc - she also didn't say no during all this time. She waited until she knew that we'd signed the forms and contract, paid deposit and taken her to first few sessions to say "no". 2 weeks before the end of bloody term! No reasons nothing. Given that she has taken no responsibility for either of her children's education or childcare or preschool settings until now and then she hasn't even got a bloody reason it's really pissed us off. She is just doing it to cause us problems, I know I can't prove it, but she is. :(

[NotaDisneyMum]

snow I realise how hard this is for you, and it is clear you are totally committed to your DSD but have you stopped to consider the sacrifices you are asking your own DCs to make?

You have a finite amount of time and energy - and if you are investing that in your DSD, then your own DCs are not benefiting.
Look at the time you have taken to post about your DSD here on MN - imagine how much your own DCs would gain if you invested that time on other parts of the site - enhancing your knowledge and skills in parenting them

Your DCs will remember their childhood - and much as you'd like to think of your DSD and DC as one big happy family, as they get older, that's not how they'll see it. They will remember the fact that you gave as much of yourself to their step siblings as you did to them and while you consider that to be a good thing, they probably won't.

You may need help to deal with the grief of losing your DSD; and if you don't seek it, then you are putting your DSD ahead if your own DCs.

[SavoyCabbage]

You can't just keep moving schools because you perceive something better is on the horizon.

It's a huge deal for a child to go to a different school. It's something that you do if you have to.

[allnewtaketwo]

I don't get it. You know that the school run will be IMPOSSIBLE for their mother but you still are going on about 50:50. You're either knowingly set her up to fail, or you are very naive and are ignoring facts

[bunchamunchycrunchycarrots]

Op the problem is that you proceeded on the basis that she would say yes, and didn't consider the possibility that she would say no. You had no express agreement and you knew that, yet still went ahead with trial sessions, deposits etc. It's frustrating dealing with someone who doesn't communicate but you need to change how you deal with that because that is the reality of your situation - you feel like their mother but you have no say in these decisions because their mother has the right to say mo to whatever you proposed. Thats her right as their mother, and there is nothing you can do to change that. Bulldozing your way through in the hope that it gives her no choice but to agree with whatever is suggested is never going to yield the results you or your DP wants. The fact is she is their mother, she has a say, and you cannot continue to live as though its immaterial to your plans what her views are. Unless the mother's rights/ responsibilities are legally terminated, you cannot proceed on anything that changed the status quo without her say/input/agreement. If she fails to respond or agree with what you or your DP want, you have to accept that or risk the long term set up if the ex here ever decides she's had enough of being steamrolled into whatever the next 'best' or 'better' thing is that you come up with. Listen to what magicllama said about her friend.

[SnowWhiteWinter]

allnewtaketwo - She is also well aware of the issue with DSD2's primary school application and that she is very unlikely to get into the same school as DSD1 without appeal. She hasn't raised any issues or proposals for change and still wants 50/50, so we are hardly "setting her up to fail" Isn't that ultimately down to her mum to organize how she gets her to school (although DP has told her he is more than willing to rearrange the 50/50 and help her with school runs when we can). The situation was nobody's fault as such and has just arisen due to them separating and both moving out of the area.

Savoycabbage - Nobody is moving schools! DSD1 is definitely not moving. The only moving that is planned is for DSD2 to change preschools, to a better one round the corner form her current one.

[NotaDisneyMum]

If she fails to respond or agree with what you or your DP want, you have to accept that

I agree.

In the early stages of my separation, my interaction with my ex was not dissimilar to the OP's DP and his ex.

My ex would email, text or write to me, ostensibly to "discuss" an issue regarding DD, but it was worded in such as way that it was clear that he had already decided on what he wanted to do, and was seeking my agreement - it felt like he was only asking me because he didn't want to look bad; he wanted to be able to say "well, I asked her what she thought" - just like the OP has been saying on this thread.

This used to piss me off no end - I felt bullied and sidelined because he was drawing conclusions on his own about was best for DD without listening to my opinion at all. He often discussed issues with other family members before mentioning them to me.

So, occasionally, I dug my heels in and didn't play his game. Yes, there were occasions when he was all set to action something he had unilaterally decided was right for DD, and I would then say that no, I didn't agree, and I wasn't prepared to co-operate with his decision.

It's certainly not the best thing for the DC's, but when you feel that you are being excluded from your own DC's life, the tigress-mother instinct kicks in.

snow, can I ask a question about the pre-school issue, please? It's a nice quick question, so you won't need to re-read it, or consider your response. Did your DP provide the pre-school that he has applied to with his ex's details - name, address, details of the care arrangement etc,even though she was not involved in the application at the time? I ask because one of the incidents that has left a lasting impact on my ability to co-operate with my ex is when I was told by DD's dentists that they would not discuss her treatment with me because they had no record of me as DD's mum. Can you imagine how I felt, having to provide evidence that my DD was in fact my DD?

[allnewtaketwo]

"Isn't that ultimately down to her mum to organize how she gets her to school"

NO, you are specifically making plans knowing that she will end up in the school 1 hour away from her home, making it IMPOSSIBLE for her mother to get both children to school. And you know she has no say in it because your DP holds the child benefit.

This all sounds very deliberate, pre-planned and vindictive to me. You insist you're encouraging her but at the same time creating a situation which is impossible and unworkable for her.

[SnowWhiteWinter]

allnewtaketwo - We have no say it in either as holding the CB doesn't mean you get to choose what school your children go to, you have to be nearby too!

So, we are applying for DSD2 to go to DSD1's school as first choice and 2nd choice is the school most local to us. That is what has been submitted on her application.

We will appeal if she doesn't get choice 1 (DSD1's school) but we don't actually have any other options. Unless we (ot their mum) moves, right now, and before Jan 18th when the school applications close, to where DSD1's school is, which isn't possible for either us or her.

Deliberate, preplanned and vindictive? Nope. We are not and have not created a situation that is unworkable for her, there is no choice we can make that will or would have made it easier for her.

[bunchamunchycrunchycarrots]

My ex would email, text or write to me, ostensibly to "discuss" an issue regarding DD, but it was worded in such as way that it was clear that he had already decided on what he wanted to do, and was seeking my agreement - it felt like he was only asking me because he didn't want to look bad; he wanted to be able to say "well, I asked her what she thought" - just like the OP has been saying on this thread.

That's exactly how it reads to me too NADM. OP, in this situation, you have started from the POV that your DSD has the opportunity to go to a 'better' preschool (in your opinion) than her current one, and have done everything you can to persuade the ex here that it's in the girl's best interests to move pre-school, even though she'll be moving again for school in less than a year. The reason you are still going ahead with this proposal, even though the mum hasn't agreed, and has specifically said no to you/your DP taking your DSD out of her current pre-school for a meet'n'greet at your preferred preschool, is not beause there was an issue with the current one - and by that I mean there is no neglect, no ill treatment, no health & safety issues - but because you see an opportunity that you think is 'better' and you will go to anylengths to make it happen, even when the child's mother says no. The fact that you can still disregard her objection, despite everything that has been posted already, quite frankly astounds me. Your reality is, you have no say, and your DP cannot simply, unilaterally, decide to move her when there are no real issues with the current preschool, when his ex has said no. If he does, he risks the current set up he has, and any future ability to have a say himself, should his ex decide she's had enough of your DP bulldozing her on issues that she has a right to veto is she chooses to.

Moving your DSD to a preschool for a max 6 mths, for the sake of an 'outstanding' ofsted report, at the risk of long term stability should this be the straw that broke the camel's back for the ex here, is a massive, MASSIVE gamble to take, and more so because your DSD's here have already had enough to deal with 'til now. So many people posting here simply cannot understand WHY you and your DP would take that gamble, for the sake of 6 mths in a preschool that will not magically guarantee any tangible evidence of your DSD 'having the best start to school', when the stakes here are so high, and the most impact will fall on those 2 girls you claim you love like they were your own. I would never take a risk like that with my DD, never mind anyone else's kids. If you truely love those girls, and really want whats best for them, you need to take a good, hard look at what you are doing to fuel the endless cycle of 'issues' and conflict, and do what you can to step back, or encourage your DP to change how he is dealing with this situation.

[NotaDisneyMum]

we don't actually have any other options

Yes, you do. You can engage with professionals who are paid and trained to work with families such as your DSD, to ensure that they are not subject to more disruption and chaos.
Why is your DP so reluctant to do so?

I'm desperately trying to overlook the fact that you have used the phrase "WE". you're right in one way, because "YOU" have no options at all - your DP has, though, but you are ignoring them.

[PoppyPrincess]

If I was their mum I'd be applying for residency, getting the child benefit transferred to me and putting them both in a school on my door step.

Sorry but I think if you're not careful you're going to end up losing these girls.
There's no residency order, there's nothing to stop her just not returning them to you one day. By the time it would get to court they would have been living with her for a couple of months and as long as she was coping well they'd probably grant her residency as they wouldn't want another upheaval for the girls.

I think you need to gain some more respect for their mother, despite what you think about her she is their mother.
If another woman was trying to claim such a right to my children the way that you are with hers it would make my blood boil!

[allnewtaketwo]

I don't believe that you hadn't thought of all this before though, particularly as your own children handily go to the school near you where you are pretty certain DSD2 will go to. With the level of pre-planning you clearly do, I simply don't believe you hadn't foreseen exactly what was going to happen here.

[allnewtaketwo]

If you INSIST on moving your DSD2's pre-school, despite her mothers CLEAR OBJECTION, and despite the overwhelming advice you've had on here, then I sincerly hope that the mother gets some extremely good legal advice and support to apply for residency, then get the child benefit and claim maintenance from you DH.

[NotaDisneyMum]

"Did your DP provide the pre-school that he has applied to with his ex's details - name, address, details of the care arrangement etc,even though she was not involved in the application at the time?"

Oh dear. snow Your lack of response to that question has answered it.

[Xalla]

To top it all off I miss the girls so much it hurts and I haven't seen them for days and days now

I just think that kind of sentiment / language in relation to step-children is very misguided.

I've cared for my DSD since she was a baby too but I'd never say such a thing. They're with their Mum; where they should be! They've had their week with their Dad, and now it's their turn to enjoy a week with their Mum. Actually I'd be fairly appalled if I heard my DH saying that about his own DD! Of course we miss my DSD when she's gone and there's a bit of a 'hole' but mostly we're just relieved she gets to enjoy a relationship with both of her parents without getting royally f*** up in the process.

I can't see that you really do support them with their relationship with their Mum at all; you have too much emotionally invested yourself to do so.

Please HEAR some of the advice above (from your fellow step-Mums) and disengage a bit. You're going to get terribly hurt if you don't Snow.

I hope your DP's solicitor apt results in some real progress for these girls.

[PoppyPrincess]

It does really annoy me when I hear people saying ''I love them as if they were my own''. Really? Sorry but this may sound like a horrible thing to say but if there was a fire and you could only carry 2 out of your house which 2 would you take?
I would say that I never knew it was possible to love someone else's children as much as I love my DSC, I miss them when they're not here but I don't think it can ever be the same as the love you have for a child that you have made, carried for 9 months and given birth to.
I love all the kids, I treat them all the same, I will admire them all, enjoy cuddles with them all equally etc but if they're all playing upstairs and I hear one fall off the bed and start crying my instant gut reaction and thought is ''god I hope it's not DS''
That's not being mean, it's just being truthful and I doubt that I'm alone with that feeling.

[PoppyPrincess]

Also I think it is possible to care for children and love them without stepping on the other parents toes, I think in this case their Mum's toes have been well and truly trampled on and broken in many places (metaphorically speaking).

I've been with DP since DS was 5 months old and in many ways he treats him as if he was his own but he knows the boundaries, he is my main responsibility, I make decisions regarding nurseries, schooling etc, he is his step dad not someone pretending to be his dad. Even when DS's dad was off the scene it would have been very easy for us to say that DP will just be his dad but we didn't and we've both been supportive of him having a relationship with his dad.
I think if I was to ask DP about his feelings for my DS I think he'd say the same, that he loves him an awful lot but its not the same as the love you have for your own flesh and blood.