Some advice about contact please....

[SnowWhiteWinter]

Hello. I'm hoping someone here may have been in a similar position as we are and can perhaps help or give some advice in general.

I have 2 dsc, they are both young (3 and 5). They live with my partner and I 50% of the time and with their mum the other 50% of the time.

My partner is currently having a few problems negotiating contact arrangements with their mum. Basically they have agreed that the minimum number of handovers as possible is best for everyone, as there have been problems at handover time previously. Plus we don't live that close to each other so daily handovers would be difficult for them both. They have agreed the children will stay with each of us for a week at a time and this is already happening.

My partner and I think the children are still too young to not see their mum or dad for 8 days at a time as a permanent setup. They get really upset on handover days because they miss the other parent during that time. Their mum has agreed with this. My partner has proposed that they spend one midweek night overnight with the other parent the weeks they are not with them (hope that makes sense) so they only ever go 3/4 days at a time without seeing their mum or dad. However, due to her new work rota which she has recently had put in place as flexible working she works long hours most days the weeks they are with us and much fewer hours the weeks they are with her. She has said because of this she cannot have them for a midweek overnight the weeks they are with us. My partner has offered to be flexible and help facilitate it for her and change her day each time around her days off or even if she can't do it every week just some, but she has said for that reason she will not be agreeing to the children staying with us a midweek overnight as it's not "fair". Meaning it would not be exactly 50/50.

My partner has written to her and explained it is what is best for the children that counts not what is best or "fair" for the adults. She has said her decision is final and will not discuss it further. :(

So, do any of you fellow stepmums here (or other people on this forum) have any advice?

My partner is considering applying to court regarding this, something we can't really afford if we can avoid it. There is currently no court order at all regarding residency of the children, they have tried to keep away from courts and made informal arrangements until now. However, he strongly feels it would be better for the children and she won't accept that. Does anyone have experience of family court practices? Could he apply to court for this (specific issue order could be what he needs from what we have looked up online) despite there being no current residency order? Or if he applies to court for this issue will the court/Cafcass want to bring about a full residency case? He and dsc mum both agree 50/50 with each parent (roughly) is best for the children so neither would try and go for sole residency or a much greater share of time than they currently have, it's just this one night per fortnight.

Any advice greatly received x

[NotaDisneyMum]

This is not all baout money though, this is about contact arrangements, the money thing is something everyone seems to have an issue with but isn't really a huge (if any) part of the problem.

It's going a have a HUGE impact on the ability of your DP and his ex to communicate though -you say that he (and you) resent the fact that his ex is not supporting the DCs the way you believe she should, and she is undoubtedly just as aggrieved that your DP expects her to contribute. Both think that the other is being unreasonable, and until they get past that, negotiating about anything else will be impossible.

I assume mediation has not been successful - if it has been tried? I suggest that your DP asks his solicitor about the Separated Parents Course - it is designed to help high conflict separated parents communicate. Your DP could pay to attend privately, but if the case goes to court, it may well be court ordered.

[elliebellys]

Snow it is exactly the same.im sure his ex might like 2 have been a sahm given half a chance.hell im sure most mums would..its double standards and so very wrong.

[allnewtaketwo]

OP - a very high amount divided by 2 is still not a very small amount .

If she earns say £2500 net per month (I have no knowledge of your definition of very high salary, so finger in the air and probably on the lower side of reality). 20% for 2 children would be £500. She would get what, 3/7 reduction, making cm £286 per month. Not a very small amount by my definition. And if she is being chased for DEO then that will make a lot of arrears.

And you're right, your DP is not fully funding you to be a SAHP, he is sharing this with your ex as, in effect, you now have 2 men funding you not to work

[SnowWhiteWinter]

Disney... He has inquired into the separated parents course and is considering attending. They have not done mediation as she has refused (again in writing via solicitor) bvecause she doesn't think it will help the situation.

Elliebellys...No it's not the same at all. I have always been a SAHM, even when I was in a relationship with my EX. We decided together that was the best choice for us and our children. When were separated we had to again decide what was best and we agreed I would continue to be a SAHM.

MY DP's ex has always worked. When they separated she continued to work and had the children 1/2 nights a week. When they changed to 50/50 care she increased her hours and now works full time. She has never been a SAHM and I have no idea as to whether or not she would want to. Not double standards at all, I am just lucky that my EX is very wealthy and that we have an amicable relationship and similar ideas on parenting. He is more than happy for me to have primary residency (informally, we have no formal residency agreement) and he sees the DC as he wishes.

[NotaDisneyMum]

Disney... He has inquired into the separated parents course and is considering attending.

I can highly recommend it!

My DP has done the full course, and I've done several short workshops (one led by Karen Woodall herself, which was excellent) and it makes a huge difference. DP's ex didn't attend but even so, DP learnt techniques to diffuse situations and communicate in a way that moved things forward rather than created conflict.

At the last mediation session my ex and I went on, the mediator broke the rules a little and gave us both a copy of the workbook from the CAFCASS course; although I'd seen the material before, it was great to be reminded and it certainly changed my exH approach to communication too, which has helped no end!

[elliebellys]

But again you are not financially supportin your kids yourself,nd your beratin the ex for not her kids.your only able 2 stay at home cos 2 men are keeping you..at least she is working hard 2 keep a roof over the kids head.nd im sure she is providin clothes for them.i feel truly sorry for her cos i think no matter what she does it will never be good enough for you and your partner. Im trully sickened.these 2 dcs are goin to be very damaged in the long run.

[SnowWhiteWinter]

NotaDisneymum.. That's great to hear, thank you, I will tell DP that it comes highly recommended!

Elliesbellys.. I'm not sure what to say to that. I do not have two men "keeping me" how odd. My EX pays maintenance that covers the financial cost of our DC and the cost of me not working so I can be a SAHM to our children. That is our choice and one we both agree on. My DP financially supports his DC as he works and expects his EX to do so too as she also works. What exactly is it that sickens you about that?

My EX's money makes the difference here, me being a SAHM doesn't mean she "should" be too - I don't even know if she would want to be. Should my EX lose his job or not be able to work then I will have to work as he wouldn't be paying maintenance.

How can you say "and I'm sure she is providing clothes for them"? It is because you can't believe that a mother would not want to see their children well dressed in clothes that fit? Well, no actually, she doesn't. As I said just last week I went out and purchased (with DP's money) new uniform for the eldest and sent it back to her house with him in his bag because he needed some and it was clear that was she wasn't going to buy any! They both need new trainers as the ones they are wearing (that my DP bought) are getting too small, but she won't replace them and if he offers to perhaps split the cost (given she is not paying any maintenance at the moment) she will ignore his request, so we will have to go and buy them.

[SnowWhiteWinter]

Damn, looks as though I am going to have to get off my lazy arse and a job :)

[bunchamunchycrunchycarrots]

So, do you send the SCs to their DM's with a suitcase full of a week's worth of clothing? And this is then returned to you at the end of her week?

[NotaDisneyMum]

snow Who cares who actually buys the DCs shoes and clothes though, as long as they have what they need?

It's not as if its a financial hardship, is it? Your DCs are not missing out on things they need (your ex pays for that)? So why does it matter so much? It's an ideal - but we don't live in an ideal world.

Let it go. Your DSC mum isn't perfect, but I doubt their Dad is either - no one is! Use your energy to focus on what is important, a little girl who needs emotional support and DDs who are crying for their Daddy. Who (other than you) really cares who paid for the clothing they are wearing when they are doing so?

[Lookingatclouds]

I agree with NADM. If you really want things to be better for everyone I would suggest you drop everything. Call off the CSA, stop pushing for contact to be different, buy what the children need when they are with you and let her do the same when they are with her. The last thing these children need is the people who are the most important in their lives constantly being at war with each other. I think court is the last thing you should be thinking of here. It's an horrendous process, expensive and stressful for everyone involved.

It sounds like she has negotiated a really good deal at work if she can change her hours like that. It means she can really concentrate on work one week, and concentrate on the children the next. I really can't see what would be achieved by upsetting that arrangement by switching homes midweek. I would have thought that would be even more unsettling, especially if handovers are problematic.

My dsd didn't see her Dad for 3 weeks between contacts at one point, yet they had a great relationship. I have gone 2-3 weeks without seeing my dd when she has been with her Dad or friends during school holidays, or if I have been ill - and dd has been absolutely fine with it.

And being unsettled just before or after a contact is perfectly normal and just the children IME going between different homes. The less often that happens the better I think, if things are acrimonious.

[elliebellys]

Snow,thats what a lot of mums do yes.we get off are arse 2 work hard nd still juggle child care,as a neccessity not a choice.

[allnewtaketwo]

OP you keep saying she's not currently paying cm so she should be paying for this, that or the other. Yet above you say "CSA have said they will shortly be deducting it direct from source". If they do this, they will also deduct the hefty arrears. And it sounds from her income that this will be a considerable sum. And so near christmas, lovely. Well done you.

[SnowWhiteWinter]

Elliebellys... It was tongue in cheek. I do not need to work as I am very lucky and fortunate that my EX has a good career, a very good wage and that between us we decided I would be a SAHM to our children, even after separation. I also appreciate lots of people have to work, I am well aware of what it is to work hard and understand lots of people have to juggle childcare.

Allnewtaketwo... Yes, they will deduct arrears. Had she kept to the agreement of sharing the costs for the children when she eventually started having them 50/50 then my DP wouldn't have applied to the CSA at all. The money he gets in arrears will be the money she would have paid at the time. I very much doubt it will be before Xmas, from what I've heard the CSA often take ages to sort things out due to their volume of work!

Bunchamunchycrunchycarrots... Up until recently, yes. The children would take a small suitcase or bag of clothes with them, spare shoes, coats, etc. Lots of things never got returned and we have replaced them. We send some things now but not as much as she has lots of things DP has previously bought.

[bunchamunchycrunchycarrots]

It seems like a very unusual set up you have OP. You receive enough in maintenance to pay your own way, and I assume you mean your % towards rent/mortgage, bills, food shopping etc. as well as the costs involved in raising your 2 kids meaning you must receive a significant amount in maintenance. That's a pretty unique and privileged position to be in. Your DP also gains from that as you are a SAHM, so provide free childcare for your SCs, thus saving your DP money in terms of childcare costs. Your presence in this set up means that your DP gains in terms of costs he has to pay alone for his DCs i.e. he doesn't have a mortgage/rent to pay alone, he doesn't have childcare costs, has someone to split his bills with. And yet, despite this advantage, he is pursuing a 'small amount' of maintenance from his ex, in a 50/50 care set up, on a point of principal as he thinks his ex should 'show willing' to contribute to their DCs costs, while the ex here will have her own costs involved when she has the DCs as she also has to fund a home for them to live in, feed them etc. while in her care. If a perfect split of everything seems so important, why not the CB as well?

[allnewtaketwo]

If he earns such a high amount he will have to pay back the child benefit in any case from next month, not just for his own dc's but for OP's dc's as well? I wonder whether this factored into his decision to chase maintenance from his ex?

OP I wonder whether your ex's current/future partners will be so willing to continue with a situation whereby he funds your lifestyle. Ditto when your children no longer require full time childcare

[elliebellys]

Xmas is csa,s favourite time 2 take extortionate amounts,up to 40%..the poor woman will get shock of her life..mayb she might decide 2 be a sahm,cos it sure as hell wont be worth her workin..

[SnowWhiteWinter]

Ellie, are you suggesting the CSA favour Xmas time to take money from people who ahve been avoiding them and thus avoiding paying maintanance for thier own children?

She does not pay for things for her own children, she has gone back on the informal agreement that she and my DP made that they would split all costs associated to the children 50/50 when she stopped paying maintenance. She hasn't, she refuses to but them new clothes, new uniform or shoes, she refuses to pay dinner money etc. He is not trying to do her out of her hard earned money, just wants her to take financial responsibility for the children.

Decide to be a SAHM to avoid having to spend some of her wages on things for her children? I don't think she would do that and how could she? She is a single woman with children, she needs to work to support them, if she quit her job she would get job seekers allowance but would be expected to get another job wouldn't she.

Allnew.... my Dp doesn't earn that much! We are still entitled to CB.

My EX has a new partner and they have a DC and she is a SAHM too. He isn't funding my lifestyle, he is paying for our children - we aren't rich, we don't have a big house, don't have nice cars, don't have expensive holidays or anything like that. We have already decided that in a few years I will go back to work and of course then the maintenance he pays will decrease massively, we are both happy with that and believe that is best for our children.

[allnewtaketwo]

"She does not pay for things for her own children"

Really - you send food to her house, pay a proportion of her rent/mortgage, bills etc?

[allnewtaketwo]

Incidentally, if no-one is funding you, then who pays for your food/clothes/bills etc?

[elliebellys]

Csa are ruthless,u will soon learn believe me.they do big up payments usually a week before xmas.all they leave you with is protected earnings which usually isnt much more than what ud get on income support.

[bunchamunchycrunchycarrots]

OP I think you have a very unfortunate attitude towards your DP's ex. She pays nothing towards her own children? So she doesn't feed them, doesn't have a home that's big enough to accommodate them? She is on her own, funding herself, looking after her kids 50% of the time with no CB, no tax credits, no partner to share her bills/rent etc. and her ex is pursuing her for a 'small amount' of maintenance as well?

[bunchamunchycrunchycarrots]

I'm imagining a spreadsheet system here, keeping track of all expenses incurred, with demands for half from the ex, while ignoring the fact care is split 50/50, only one parent receives CB while at the same time that same parent has the luxury of having a partner fully financially independent yet able to stay at home to provide not only free childcare but a % towards the household expenses. We are not really talking about equal households are we?

[NotaDisneyMum]

pingu there are certainly similarities between the OPs situation and several previous posters; none of them were prepared to answer the same question that I asked them either:

OP, why is it so important that your DSC mum pays her way in your opinion? You've made it clear that you're not going without as a family and she is only liable for a small amount. Why is this so important to you, who won't financially benefit - especially when there are far more important issues, like the emotional welfare of your DSC?

You asked for advice about whether a specific issue order could force your DSC mum to agree to your DPs proposal for contact. You seem to think that this is a way of bypassing a Residency/contact order. You say that your DP is not prepared to risk less than 50% of his DCs time but their mum won't agree to more. Can't you see how damaging this is for the DCs?

I'll say to you what I've said to other posters in similar situations - I hope this goes to court sooner rather than later because the court will act in the DCs best interests which is something that none of the adults in their life seem to be able to do