Different expectations between homes - can it work?

[NotaDisneyMum]

I've posted about this before, and it has come up again - not completely unexpectedly, because DSS is with us for a week during the school holidays, so it's more noticable.

DSS is a young yr 4 (8 1/2). There are elements of his behaviour that DP and I feel are that of a much younger child - some of which are explained by a general regression due to diagnosed anxiety (that he is receiving intermittent counselling for), but there are aspects of his lack of abilities around personal care that are more to do with his lack of skill/ability/motivation, and the fact that he is not expected to take personal responsibility for them elsewhere.

For instance. DSS has a regular swimming lesson - and DP takes him one week in two as it falls during contact time. DP expects DSS to change before and after the lesson independently (he still goes into the changing room with DSS, though). DSS struggles to think about what he has to do, in what order, and to actually do it. In contrast, his mum takes him into the ladies changing rooms and undresses him, dries him etc. herself.

DSS has no table skills at all; he shovels food into his mouth as fast as possible, dropping it down himself, over the table and is often caked in it when he has finished his meal. DP and I have more or less resigned ourselves to the fact that this is not something we can change believe me, we've tried and my boundary about that is that I won't eat out with DSS.

But, the lack of table skills is linked to another issue, and that is that DSS is not capable of washing himself independently. He has not been able to grasp the concept that getting ready for bed/getting up involves going into the bathroom, brushing his teeth, washing his face/hands etc, and then putting his pyjamas or clothes on. On talking this through with him, DSS revealed that he is not expected to wash at his mums - he showers 3 times a week, but doesn't wash himself in between, and his mum directs him during the course of the evening to put his pyjamas on, then he'll go and watch TV or play, and then a bit later his mum will tell him to brush his teeth (if she doesn't ask, he doesn't brush them). the same happens in the mornings. Consequently, DSS can often be seen with days-old food on his face, and his nails/ears etc are often filthy!

Is there any chance of DP and I influencing this? DSS is with us 4 consecutive nights a fortnight and half of all school holidays - we've been trying to support him to become more independent for several months, but it seems every time he arrives, we are back to square one and have to start all over again! I appreciate that we can't influence what happens when he's at his mums, but is it possible to teach him personal care skills in such a short time, with intermittent reinforcement, and hope he decides to use them wherever he is?

I agree that you have to decide what is most important to you, personally I think that table manners are very important and for me bad table manners at 8.5 is pretty inescusable. My DS is only 2 and already has pretty good table manners, far better than DSD and DSS who are almost 5 and 7. At the end of every meal DS will even say ''thank you for a lovely tea, please can I leave the table''.
When I'm picking any of the up on their table manners I'll just do it in a nice way like ''sorry I can't tell what you're saying when you're eating, tell me when you've finished what's in your mouth'' or as my dad used to say to us ''don't talk with your mouth full, fill it and shut up!'' and then laugh, it's obvious that you're then kind of joking about it.
I know adults with bad table manners and it's awful, if I'm out for a meal and see someone shovelling their food in to their mouth it actually makes me feel a bit sick, I really think its something you can't ignore. And yes you might not be able to change it wherever he is I think he should at least learn what is expected of him at your house, I really don't think you are asking a lot.

Please don't take this in the wrong way but he doesn't have any learning problems does he? It's just with you saying about his mum dressing him etc, this doesn't really seem very normal at 8.5, my 4 (nearly 5) year old dss wouldn't be seen dead having his mum or dad dress him.

Please don't take this in the wrong way but he doesn't have any learning problems does he? It's just with you saying about his mum dressing him etc, this doesn't really seem very normal at 8.5, my 4 (nearly 5) year old dss wouldn't be seen dead having his mum or dad dress him

I've mentioned before that I'm keen to avoid labelling him (that's his parents job) but tbh, he doesn't seem to have any problems doing what he wants to do. I do I think he has developed a sense of learned helplessness; his mum has a fiery temper that was stretched to the limit when DSS was aged between about 4 and 7, and his teenage sister bullies him (he has been to counselling for that), so I think in some ways he doesn't do things for himself because he is worried about getting told off/teased/yelled at.
When DP did talk to his ex about DSS changing for swimming, she said that she is always in a rush and DSS takes so long that it is quicker for her to do it herself. Unfortunately, I can imagine she has very little patience with him and may have been so harsh with him on more than one occasion that he is more worried about that than his friends seeing him. DP is happy to sit and wait for him to take his time; but it doesn't seem that DSS is retaining the information between times .

Saying that, a few of DSS classmates go to the same swimming lessons, and they are dried/dressed by their parents as well!

DP and I have talked and talked about this to try and understand what it going on; our perception about the maturity of DSS and his peers at his school is so different from the experience we had with DD and her (male) peers at the same age (different school).
One of the things we have noticed is that DSS and a lot of his classmates are either only children, or have much older siblings who they don't socialise with, and they don't tend to use childcare facilities - so they haven't had the chance to mix with children of different ages.
Whereas my DD's peers are generally from big, close-in-age families with lots of extended family links (cousins etc) and a fair proportion of them attend after school care with mixed age children, or play out supervised by older siblings/friends. Socially, the families at each school are very different - DD is at a school in an area identified as "disadvantaged" (high free-school-meals, illiteracy etc) and the DC's do seem to have developed street-smarts including personal responsibility, quite young. In contrast, DSS school has a far more affluent catchment, and the DC's seem to spend a lot more time in their parents care/company, often with multiple adults to each DC, but seem to have less in the way of self-responsibility; for instance, they have poor traffic awareness and seek out their parents hand when crossing the road, compared to DD's peers at the same age who would safely make their way independently, and be very offended/embarrassed if they had to hold a parents hand.

Perhaps some of the issue is because there are fewer older DC role models for DSS and his peers to aspire to than there were for DD's class? There is one lad in DSS class who stands out because he seems to be a lot more mature than the rest; funnily enough, he is often to be seen playing out with DC's from DDs school as he is local to here

I think some children WANT to be independent, in my experience, they often tend to be girls.

My own DS has had to be encouraged to do everything as the times came along. He was never a child to want to learn how to do something new, I'm sure I would still be spoon feeding him now if I hadn't pushed him to hold a knife and fork (he's a teen now). He would have been an easy child to have "babied" and I can see that he could have been like your DSS, NADM, had I not been quite pro-active.

Having lived with DSC, the youngest is very capable BUT will regress to very babyish attitudes if she thinks she can get some attention. She says she can't brush her hair, and wants me to do it, usually when I'm mad busy getting ready for work. She wants a bedtime story etc. etc. She's more than capable but is sometimes lazy and wants to attention.

Do you think your DSS does it for attention? I think boys (sorry for generalising) often want any attention at all, even if it is negative. The looking out of the corner of his eye at his Dad, might mean he is looking for your attention too.

I think you can influence him but it will be an uphill struggle because I think you are dealing with 2 issues, the way his Mum allows him to behave but also his own personality, which I think is your biggest hurdle.

Yes now that you've explained in more detail I think the issues are much more complex than I first realised.
I think redhen is right about boys wanting attention and from my experience they seem to particularly love attention from their dad.
You are right that you can't change his behaviour with the small amount of time that you have with him but all you can do is try your best, show him that you love him and how you would like him and others to behave in your home, if it works then great, if it doesn't then at least you know you tried.
And even if you don't see an immediate result the chances are that one day he'll remember what you taught him and use it.

I think I learnt a lot of my mothering skills and house keeping skills from my stepmum rather than my own mother, my mum didnt really keep a nice home but my stepmum did, as an adult I've chosen to use the skills she taught me. So you never know, he might turn 18 and take a nice girl out for a meal and decide to use the table manners you taught him.

In some ways I think it is easier for kids who experience the different rules in different households. I watch my DSs and DSSs navigating around the rules they experience at their various households and wonder what it would have been like for them if everyone had stayed in their original household .

We have four boys and some remember to wash, brush their hair, use soap in the shower, wipe their bum and some well, one seem to have more important things on their mind. I pin my hopes on the fact one day there will be someone in their life they want to impress more than us. Hopefully, you can use the Y4/6 school trip as an incentive for dressing? In the meantime, ours have a routine, written down and laminated if necessary. If they don't do it I will employ cat techniques ( and have licked them and their hair) in the playground/in front of their pals.

On the table manners we are strict (eat with your mouth closed and talk with your mouth empty are the most frequent refrain at our table). We have explained that we give them a hard time because they will need to eat nicely for job interviews, meeting people for first time etc. if we've had a hard meal with any of them we'll find a way of making it ok by having fun afterwards so they don't vote with their feet - another game of monopoly/chess/Guess Who?
oh, we take them out for dinner and tip heavily so they get to try out, and we get to nag, what they've learnt or haven't in public!

I love my boys but boy they're hard work - my current nag for all five chaps in my home are wet fecking towels on the carpets or beds!

I'd say keep up with the table manners. The rest, do as you're DP is already doing, just build enough time in to your lives for him to do it himself. He's only 8 and you've still got another 10 years for him to learn

And missduff is right, he will remember and I bet when he's sat at a table with his own child making a mess he'll remember the time with you and his Dad

Hi

This is a difficult one but I have experienced it.

In my view, yes you can influence him.

I have a DSS who is diagnosed mild SN and has problems with social communication, he is like yours disney mildly anxious, too. He is 11 but is more like a 7 year old. Wet the bed every night until about 18 mo ago. We have him 2 nights pw with my DSDs who are both a bit older.

When I came on the scene and he was 7 it was much like you described. I worked out, slowly, that his problems were caused by an overanxious mother who (s)mothered him. Think rabbit in headlights about everything. Instead of dealing with them, problems have rather been glossed over - ie they never really went out to eat rather than deal with the developing issue of his behaviour. There is a lot of infantalising going on with them all TBH and my DSDs are not "typical teenagers" (read my other posts!) which is a good thing (all tucked up in bed and no fags, booze or boys) but they are also very dependent and live in a rather austere and strictly controlled enviroment at home where they are encouranged not to question and to accept. Cue also a very damaged 14 yo DSD, too.

As for expectations in two homes. I think, for me, after four years it's not expectations so much as saying- this is me, this is how we roll in this house. Get on with it. Dont fret. Try and make it so he is not realising that he is learning. I really feel that if you stick to your guns and maintain good manners youself (stop, look at me, listen and learn) remain calm and kind and set him clear and fair boundaries and dont lose the plot if it all goes wrong- it should start to work.

I also find that if I am on my own with him he is QUITE capable of cleaning teeth, making lunch, having shower, flushing loo..!!

At the heart of this is an anxious little boy. Despite your difficulties I found it easier if I tried to see the bigger picture. Try and relax I am sure that eventually it will just "rub off" on him.

My ds will not brush his teeth unless reminded although I second the idea of an electric toothbrush as this has made a massive difference to his enthusiasm. He also doesn't wash in the shower unless told to but I don't think that is odd.
However he does dry and dress himself at home and at swimming lessons (he is also 8)
I think it is possible to have different expectations at different houses - I know that is the case for my children and it works well for them.

Ime, boys can be lazy, Dss is 9, ds 8, and I still have to tell them to brush teeth, flush toilet, and so on. We also have the constant chorus of don't talk with your mouth full! Drives me potty!!!! Are there any things you could do that form a halfway stage? so for breakfast have a bowl and spoon on the side and a jokey reminder that the cereal won't pour itself?

If it helps, I am always threatening to scrub dss with the football boot scrubbing brush if he fails to wash with soap- could something like that work?
Additionally the call of "ready...... I can't find xyz" diminished after they learnt that if I found the missing object they would be tickled until they squealed. It's bloody hard work to smile some nights when I just want to yell that his woggle is in his pants drawer where he put it, but for some funny reason he doesn't want the tickle

I guess it's easier for me because my 3 are younger than dss, so all 4 get the same reminders.

Tee hee, loving the though of the football boot brush threat going back to Mum

wicked I was thinking exactly the same!

I'd love to be able to parent DSS in the natural way I do DD, but I doubt that's ever going to be possible - the potential impact and fallout is just too damaging

You just can't joke can you - because it all goes back. If my DD said her SM had said something like that i would take it as the joke it was obviously intended to be. I know from expereince though that i can't do that with DSD... it's a shame as kids need that kind of violent threat humour to be injected in to parenting, rather than being stroken and considered all the time.

stroked not stroken

DSS looks totally bewildered when I joke with DD like that - jokes like threatening to stop feeding her because she grown out of recently bought clothes, or teasing her about her inability to remember things are incomprehensible to him; he takes them seriously and it adds to his anxiety

Even asking him if his breakfast will make itself leaves him confused - he's very literal and has never been parented using humour - it's always yelling, ignoring or BFF - no actual guidance and tutoring as such

Poor wee love. They need the violent humour, bit like they appreciate it in tom and jerry. I am very lucky in that dad's mum isn't too fussed in that way anymore, although she has her sporadic regular strops.