Trying to "be a parent" with limited contact

[NotaDisneyMum]

We've just had a very difficult weekend with DSS7 - and DP is wondering whether he is trying to achieve the impossible.

DP and his exW have very different parenting styles - which has already led to the estrangement of DP's 13 yr old daughter, who prefers her mums "free range" style parenting to the expectations and consequences that DP has in our home.

DSS is emotionally quite "young" for his age - in particular in relation to his manners (particularly at the table) and his personal responsibility when out (he expects to be led by the hand and would actually follow someone under a bus, I'm sure!).

DP tries really hard to give him opportunities to develop independence and develop skills to match his peers - but DSS is only here for four nights a fortnight (Thursday after school to Monday school drop-off).
After a particularly difficult weekend, DSS has indicated that he prefers his mums house to here, because "there are no consequences at Mums, when me or C (his sister) do something wrong, all mum does is yell at us"

IMO, DP is not being tough on DSS at all - he expects basic manners (please, thank you etc), simple personal care tasks (brush teeth, wash hands before dinner), there are a few crucial (and simple) house rules in relation to the dogs, and finally, DP expects DSS to be honest. The consequence for DSS blatantly lying to a teacher in front of DP last week (about washing his hands before sitting down at breakfast club) was that DP docked his pocket money by £1 for this week. (it was linked to money because DSS had picked up a penny outside school and quite reasonably, DP had told him that it was dirty and he would need to wash before eating).

Any thoughts? Is DP fighting against the tide? Should he just make the time DSS has with him enjoyable, without trying to teach/influence DSS? isn't this just becoming the Disney Dad he is desperate to avoid?

I'm right with you with on giving out consequences for not doing house chores or behaving appropriately. But that doesn't mean you can force someone to do something. What that means is that as an adult carer you have the power to dole out a punishment if a child won't do what you want. Then the child chooses whether to comply or accept the consequence.

The OP talks about the child not wanting to get dressed alone for swimming. That's not a developmental delay. The kid can get dressed alone, but doesn't want to. In that circumstance if a parent just pushes and nags, I think the kid gets an increasing amount of power & attention and everyone loses.

"That's not a developmental delay. The kid can get dressed alone, but doesn't want to".
No, I'm sorry - but that is a potential develomental delay. Develomental delay does not only mean delays in physical or cognitive ability, but in emotional and social skills as well! There are four areas that professionals generally look at when assessing development - cognitive, motor, speech, and socio-emotional.

I am certainly not trying to suggest a diagnosis for this individual kid, based on a couple of posts, not at all!!! But the point is, emotional and social immaturity is grounds for concern. WHY doesn't the kid want to do a certain thing? If it is because he has emotional issues about dependency, that needs to be addressed. If it is because he is OCD or ADHD or another clinical diagnosis, that needs to be addressed. And if it sheer 'bloodymindedness' or attention seeking or boundary testing or another behavioural issue, yes, that needs to be addressed. My point a couple of posts ago was just that doing nothing - deciding it is on a normal spectrum and hoping he'll grow out of it without any changes - doesn't seem appropriate given how the behaviour is affecting the kid's ability to function. If he won't use the bathroom at school or dress himself, or if he gives up activities rather than have to change clothes himself, then I think the OP is right to be concerned and want to take steps to 'force' diferent behaviour.

Again, I think the word 'force' is a bit loaded, but I stand by the point - one can make kids do things, and one should make kids do things. By 'force' I suppose I mean that you make appropriate consequences untenable enough that the kid complies. To use the example above - of forcing the kid to go to school - yes, I'd force my daughter to go to school. I don't feel bad about saying that!

notadisneymum yes, i agree. it is very strange to me that one parent would allow their kid to opt out of contact with the other, if not for reasons of abuse etc.

Chelen - I agree, my 'tough love' solution would be to let DSS miss out on swimming if he chooses not to take personal responsibility for himself but when separated parents are involved it's not quite that simple, is it?

Unfortunately, we suspect that DSS mum doesn't really want him to continue with classes (timing/convenience and money issues) but rather than 'be the bad guy' and just say he can't go anymore, she is manipulating the situation so that he chooses not to go
She did something similar with the DSC athletics club (told them that because it was held 'at dinner time' if they wanted to go, they'd miss dinner!) - and both DSC have been made aware that their mum has 'money worries' and they have started to make choices which accommodate that

DP is struggling to come to terms with the fact that the DSC may grow up without the life skills that he believes are important - it seems that is the price the DSC (and he) are paying for the failure of their parents marriage

Justabout - so back to DisneyDad, then?

No expectations, no consequences, ensuring that the family revolves around DSS when he's here? What about privileges that my DD has to earn- should they be also given to DSS, if not, he might otherwise opt out of visiting?

DP and I talked about this when DSD gave him an ultimatum earlier this year - he says that if being a parent to his DCs is not possible, then there's nothing left to their relationship - he can't be 'friends' with a nearly 8 year old boy and a teenage girl who only spend time with him when he's offering the Disney experience

Other discussions I've been involved in on MN have made me realise that other DCs of DSS age generally demand, and are given, far more responsibility, freedom and privileges than DSS - my concern, and that of DPs, is the long term effect that could have on him, and the reasons why he is making these choices.

When you say 'pushing', it implies we are challenging him to do things that are at the limit of his capabilities, which is not the case at all.
If DSS 'chooses' to ask DP to dress him/do his coat up/brush his teeth one particular day, even though he's been doing these things successfully himself for weeks - is it better for DP to concede, rather than encourage DSS to do it himself, because it maintains their positive relationship and DSS doesn't think; 'dads mean'?

Co-sleeping is another case in point - DSS still occasionally comes into our room asking to sleep with us because he's scared/had a bad dream - is it better for DP say yes (after all, his mum let's him) because otherwise DSS might think his sister is right and DP and I are 'horrid'?

NotaDisney - "DP and I talked about this when DSD gave him an ultimatum earlier this year - he says that if being a parent to his DCs is not possible, then there's nothing left to their relationship - he can't be 'friends' with a nearly 8 year old boy and a teenage girl who only spend time with him when he's offering the Disney experience"

I so admire your DP for this. I am a "friend" to my friends kids, to my nephews etc. and to an extent to my step children but I WANT to PARENT my child, otherwise I would honestly feel that they weren't my child.

I find it hard to comprehend how some people can behave like their kids aren't their own and are just visitors in their home. I suppose they think it is better than nothing but they are doing both their children and themselves a great disservice.

It's like anything in life. If you don't give it your best shot, the results will be mediocre.

NADM, I think you're in a really tough position, which is an unexpected but not uncommon consequence of having two homes. I don't believe that he has to be a disney dad to take some of the heat out of this situation.

I would say, on teeth brushing - no, I'm not going to brush your teeth because I know you can do it. If you don't want to brush them, then don't. But just to warn, if you don't brush them we can't have treats like ice cream tomorrow because I care about your health. But I respect your right to choose. Now, make your mind up quick because I don't want to run out of time for a story tonight, I love reading you stories.

If the kid has serious emotional problems which mean he can't grow up, he needs professional help. Nagging/punishments/reward charts won't help serious emotional problems.

If he hasn't got serious emotional problems and is just lazy/trying it on/grumpy, then give a consequence of not doing these things, shrug & let him choose. If he misses out on stuff that's his look out & really the only way he'll learn. That message will get through even if only applied 2 nights a fortnight. Then its important to give him reasons to come back to see his dad - like having fun together etc.

I think by pushing, I meant not that the things you ask for are difficult but they're a bit like 'if you can do this you're better than a kid who can't'. This is a sentiment some kids respond to by saying 'up yours then'. I know I sound very bleeding heart but maybe he's scared to try at these things that his dad makes such a big deal out of, because if he fails what happens then?

Brdgrl - I guess you can force kids to go to school. My mum forced me, marched me down there on occasions. Didn't mean I did any work, but I did get through the entire works of Jilly Cooper so not a total waste of time? Sometimes I'd wait for her to drive off and just walk back out. You can lead a horse to water...

"OK, you don't want a parent. Shall we meet for coffee once a month and catch up?"
Or "Would you like to come to dinner once a month/a fortnight, and just chat?"

He did that for a few months after she gave him the ultimatum that she wouldn't visit any more - but it became clear that she didn't really want to be there and she began to refuse the invites to coffee and said she would only come for dinner if he took her to specific restaurants of her choice - then if he did, she txt'd her mum contantly throughout the meal and rarely say a word

On the advice of the family support worker we're seeing, he backed off for a couple of weeks, to encourage her to put some effort into their relationship, but she didn't. When he tried to resume contact, she blanked him.

She is subject to significant pressure from her mum though - in my post on here, I outlined what she has been exposed to as a hypothetical, "how to alienate DD from her Dad" post.

you are going to have to work even harder to keep the trust and respect of the som, and quite possibly let some of the issues that you would otherwise stand your ground on, go.

• I think DP is slowly realising that, but it's a horribly fine line to tread!

The biggest difference with DSS is that there is a contact order in place; which his Mum has relied on in the past when explaining to him why he "can't" spend more time with his Dad when he asked. Ironically, DP referred to his Mums explaination of the CO when DSS said to DP that he didn't want to spend the extra days here in Spring half term. It must be hard for him though trying to understand why his sister gets the choice but he doesn't.

When the family court made the contact/residency decision, they issued a recital for DSD which was subject to her specific wishes as to whether or not to have contact with DP. She got a bit of a power-trip from that (she was 12 at the time), as well as pressure from her mum, which is how we have ended up where we are now.

Looking back, we could have done things differently, which might have delayed the innevitable - but hidesight is a wonderful thing, isn't it ?

you are going to have to work even harder to keep the trust and respect of the som, and quite possibly let some of the issues that you would otherwise stand your ground on, go.

• I think DP is slowly realising that, but it's a horribly fine line to tread!

The biggest difference with DSS is that there is a contact order in place; which his Mum has relied on in the past when explaining to him why he "can't" spend more time with his Dad when he asked. Ironically, DP referred to his Mums explaination of the CO when DSS said to DP that he didn't want to spend the extra days here in Spring half term. It must be hard for him though trying to understand why his sister gets the choice but he doesn't.

When the family court made the contact/residency decision, they issued a recital for DSD which was subject to her specific wishes as to whether or not to have contact with DP. She got a bit of a power-trip from that (she was 12 at the time), as well as pressure from her mum, which is how we have ended up where we are now.

Looking back, we could have done things differently, which might have delayed the innevitable - but hidesight is a wonderful thing, isn't it ?

Eugh - sorry - server issues?

I read the post from the other thread, which is grim reading. Hopefully the CO will help your DP avoid a rerun with his son. It must be really tough on him - and you.

Thanks chelen - it would be really easy for DP to do his utmost to be popular with DSS and indulge/spoil him; like theredhen says, a lot of Dads do exactly that.
DP has my total support and admiration for wanting to be more to his son than just a leisure activity

I'm sure we'll find a middle ground somewhere along the way - but it has helped to hear that others have dealt with this successfully

Hi, I'm new to MN, and have been engrossed in step-parenting for the last three hours. I can't believe how much on here I can relate to! It is such a releif to read all this, to know I'm not alone in these issues, and to see advice. This thread in particular has caught my attention (along with DISENGAGE).

I have two DSSs aged 9 and 11. I want to ask brdgrl if you really mean it when you say you would accept your DSS not wanting to spend as much time at your and DH's home if your home has more boundaries than his mum's?

This is exactly what we are faced with and it terrifies me. I moved in when my DSSs were 5 and 7, and there have always been some difficulties, as DH and his EXW have very different parenting styles (very few rules at his mum's, no chores, bought whatever they want, versus at ours wanting a few minor chores (eg make bed), respect and value for belongings). The last year or so though I have found it harder - I have tried to disengage but a few weeks ago DSS 9 was being very argumentative and rude to his dad for over ten mins, and I eventually caved and asked him to leave the room and think about his behaviour. DH went to talk to him after a bit, and he later came back and apologised to his dad, got on with the homework cheerfully and we all played games afterwards. Took them to school in the morning, all as normal. Two days later nasty emails were sent from their mum to us about the prehistoric punishment and requested that we apologise to DSS who apparently was so distressed by our bad behaviour that she had to cancel her evening plans (not to console him, but because she was upset on his behalf, so got a babysitter in a went to bed early). They came to ours the next visit and all appeared normal, but the emails continued (including some pretty unpleasant and totally irrelevant stuff), and she then called to say that she had asked them if they wanted to come for their next visit or not, and while one at first said yes, they ultimately both said no.

I was mortified that they didn't come - it was me that asked him to leave the room (although DH was in full support and felt it worked out well), and DH was utterly miserable at not seeing them. They came the next visit (at ours twice a week), and it's not been mentioned since beyond asking if they want to talk about it, and them saying no. We never saw anything when they were with us to suggest they were upset, but maybe they hid it? Anyway, since then I have tried even harder to disengage, as I'm desperately afraid of them not visiting us again, particularly as a result of something I did. But that leaves it all to DH (emotional stuff I mean - I do practical stuff like food, laundry, car runs etc), which causes tension between us. Rock and hard place is how I feel, but them not coming to stay has to be the worst in my mind.

Sorry, that ended up far longer than anticipated...

Hi Chocster, we have a lot of the same issues with dh's exW. We have been together for 5 years but it is only in the last year I have been allowed to be on my own with my dsd's - even for 5 minutes! I have not been allowed to discipline them in any way at all - even me asking them to do something, or not to do something (like kicking the back of my seat in the car) would result in a hysterical phone call from her. I believe that she quizzes the girls when they go back to hers to find out if we have done anything "wrong". In the past this has included virtually everything I have said! Things have eased slightly on this front but only because she has found I can be more use to her if she lets me pick up the girls etc.

In the end I believe you have to be true to yourself - it does these kids no good at all letting them get away with bad behaviour. your "punishment" was appropriate and effective.

"I want to ask brdgrl if you really mean it when you say you would accept your DSS not wanting to spend as much time at your and DH's home if your home has more boundaries than his mum's?"

Sorry, Chocster, I think wires got crossed there, I think just the complete opposite...I would never let my minor child make the decision about visiting her parent. (Assuming the parent has not been determined to be unfit, in which case it would/should not be up to the kid either!) Kids are always going to have moments of 'hating'/being angry/wanting to shut the parent out, or even just have alternative activities they'd rather do than visit the parent - but it is not up to the kids to make that decision. In your case you talked about above - I think the mother has acted badly. She should not have asked the kids if they "wanted" to go for their visit, any more than one would ask their kids if they wanted to go to the doctors, or school, or some other non-optional thing.

It has been a real surprise to me how many parents let their kids choose not to see the other parent. Very strange, I think...not in the long-term interest of the child who is deprieved of the chance to build and develop a relationship with the non-custodial parent. And also obviously very open to abuse by self-serving parents who want to use the kids to play out their dramas. Your DH's ex sounds out-of-line to me.

I also think she should not have asked you guys to apologise, but that's another rant, I guess!

oh, i see, do you mean where i wrote "If he is less keen to spend time with us because of it, I think DH and I are willing to accept that as a part of parenting a teenager, because it is important to us that he learn that he can't get out of things he doesn't like by just refusing to do them properly. "

Maybe I was unclear - I meant that I'm not all that fussed if he isn't enjoying spending time with us, or stays in his room rather than hanging out with the family. I'd rather have a sulky kid around, sulky because he was made to do something he didn't want to do, than not make him do things because then he'd be sulky, IYSWIM. Not that he could leave home over it!

Thanks for the responses.

Glasscb - sounds really bad for you! Puts our concerns in perspective.

brdgrl - yes, it was what you quoted that I was referring to. I obviously misunderstood what you meant as being that you wouldn't mind if he wasn't keen on coming and thus didn't come. Thanks for clarifying, and agreed on the issue of being given choice. Some things kids just need to be told what to do, not given the option! It makes it so hard at our end. I feel completely disenfranchised at the moment - want to stay true to what I and DH believe, but if the downside risk is them not coming round, that seems too great. Of course the long term downside is kids who haven't learnt about consequences... there's a balance out there somewhere