Finding a preschool

[ThomCat]

Went to check out a nursery for Lottie on Friday. it's linked to my church and the primary school I'd like her to go to. I was amazed that the teacher just wanted to talk about what Lottie's 'special needs' might be and whether they could cater for them etc. I was amazed, we're talking nursery group here, finger painting and playing with lego bricks, or whatever! There's a possibility that she might not quite be walking at 2y 10m, and also a slight chance she won't quite be dry, but soon come. I don't understand why they were making such a big deal out of it. What's going to be SO different about her at 2/3 from any other child? She might be a little slower, might, but why would that cause a teacher any problems in a nursery group? They said she wouldn't get any preferential treatment, whih is great, I don't want her to, and that she would get a place, or not, just the same as everyone else and then if she did get accepted we would discuss her 'sn' , so why then did the woman ask me to write on the bottom of the form that Lottie has DS? It was just a form registering my interest in the school at this stage and if they weren't going to let DS effect whether or not she got a place why ask me to make a note of it? Of course all this struck me on the drive home, I think I was a bit shell-shocked at the time.
Also she didn't talk about her school to me at all, instead talked all about another school in the area, in the Mencap building, which took lots and lots of sp children. That got my back up staight away, I thought, do you not want her here or something? I wouldn't have minded her just letting me know that it existed but that's all she was talking about. She then called over another teacher to ask her to tell me about it. This other teacher started talking about a little boy in her son's class with DS and said 'they walk home together and everything' -!!!!! So bloody what?! Then she said that this little boy EVEN (!) came to tea now and then and she said that her little boy once said to her 'Mummy you have to talk to him like you do everyone else'. What the hell was she talking to him like before?
Why do people have to make such a big deal of it?
I spoke to another school and said to them at the end, look by he way Charlote has DS so there is a vague chance she might not be walking. she said 'oh right we've not had one of those before, we had deafness once but not one of those'!!!! Ohhhhhhhhhhhh it just makes me SOOOO angry. What the hell is up with these people? Have any of you guys come across this type of thing (I would gues that you have), how do you deal with it, what do you say to help educate these people? I just want to tell them to stick their school and march strraight out with Lottie. I know that' not the right thing to do, but this is all new to me and I wasn't prepared for such ignorance and for people trying to pidgeon hole Charlotte so much. If it's this hard now at he pre-school stage, what am I ging to have to go through with primary and high shhols and possibly colleges? Sympathise or tell me I'm being silly and to toughen up, I don't care! I just need to talk about it with you guys.
XXX

I think a lot of people are still ignorant to the feelings of others Thomcat. They don't know you or Lottie so they can't see you as real people with feelings. It's awful I know, we have been there with dd1 and now with ds2, and tbh the way I feel like dealing with it depends on how strong I am feeling that day.

Would it help if maybe you chose to write a letter to the nurseries concerned saying how upset you were by some of their comments? There are still a lot of people who don't actually mean to offend but just don't think first, and maybe they need to have their behaviour pointed out.

I do find it surprising that they were talking about sending Lottie to a sn school already, without giving her the chance to develop and discover her skills first. Unfortunately there are some that hear a label (DS, CP etc) and feel it gives them a blanket coverage, to assume all children with that conditon are the same. They forget that all children are different regardless of sn or not.

you could also remind them that it is illegal to refuse her admission based on her down syndrome and by law every nursery must have a special needs policy and co ordiantor. I downloaded the act regarding early childhood education ( something like that ) as a point of reference for when we were looking for nursery care for dd. I can find it for you... if you like.

I have had a similar experience with one sursery I looked at - although I did not like it for a number of reasons but they left me with the impression dd would be left in a corner with little babies to get on with it - she will be over one when we want her to attend.... I did have some positive experiences with a nursery group here called Seymour House - they are UK wide and seem brilliant - just in their organisation and day to day management. In fact, my poor dh was so embarassed as he started stressing how we wanted her needs met etc, thinking I had already informed the manager about dd's ds and I had not but she was happy to show us how they cater to EACH child's individual needs. Then i told her dd had ds and she was fine about it....The best thing - the kids all looked like they loved being there and the nursery teachers etc and it was clean, cheerful and full of kids work on display, welcoming - I better stop raving.

Not sure but perhaps you could look and see if there is a Seymour House nursery near you. Another group I was looking at was called Leap Frog and they manager at Seymour House laughingly told me they were the opposition - might be another group to check out - I am yet to check out their premises.

I believe if you walk in and you don't like it or the people then send your dd somewhere else - particularly as these ppl will be looking after your child - her interests are the most important and I applaud your calm - I would have told them to put their nursery somewhere very very uncomfortable and walked out. You are certainly not being silly at all!!! This is very important and the adult attitudes determine the kid's attitudes ....

I would complain to someone higher up - even the early childhood group ( sorry can't think of their name ) and let your feelings known and explain that is why you are taking your dd somewhere else.

The first nursery I put Penny in was a private nursery (a Montessori nursery infact!) I had asked them about there special needs policy what would they do to encourage her mobility etc etc thay seemed really geared up about everything put her in with her peers said they would provide her with the stimulation & encouragement she needed. As it was when she started they didnt know how to cope with her at all they used to carry her from one activity to the other in case she fell over, they said she needed a special chair different to the other childrens because they were frightened she would fall off a normal one(?) and after many other little comments one day I went to pick her up I said has she had a nice day? they said well she preffered watching the other children so we put her on a beanbag and let her watch, this beanbag was huge she had little confidence in her mobility even though she could walk and would never have attempted to get off it herself. She was only 23 months still my baby and yet they were treating her as if there was no hope. Oh yes and she wasnt allowed out at playtime in case she fell over(again!)

Also there was a girl who worked there who lives only 2 doors up from me she told her mother that my Penny was backwards and she thought it was because I wasnt looking after her properly. Her mother then in turn precided to tell anyone whod listen.

I did take her out of the nursery but never took the matter any further because I thought I was being hyper-sensitive. (I dont now of course)

I then found another nursery and asked alot more questions, it was still a private nursery but they had dealt with children with development delays before. They were excellent they even did her speech therapy, physio and portage with her. But they didnt single her out it was just incorporated into her groups activities. She was also put with her peers.

Thomcat my dd now goes to a special needs nursery and it is brilliant lots of staff and expertise but it is a very long winded process lots of referals etc maybe this teacher just thought you ought to look into it early because it takes a very long time if thats what YOU may have wanted.

people do really p*ss me off though with whats wrong with her? whats caused it? Oh yeh and that silly cow up her even asked me if she'd had a brain scan because she thought it was CP as her nephew had it and he was the same as Penny. She said "you know he had the CP smile like Penny". WHAT??? a cp smile I have never heard so much rubbish.

Sorry I have ranted now. Know how you feel Thomcat we should really take matters further but with busy lives it is difficult isnt it.

Keep your chin up

Fiona

Thanks girls. I'm going to keep going until I find the school that feels right, has the right attitude and can see pst the fact that Lottie has DS and she her as the wonderful happy little girl she is that would be a credit to their classroom, not a hindrance!!! I am actaully now going to write a letter to those schools and outline my feelings etc so that hopefully make them think a bit and hopefully prevent them from speaking to anyone else in the same way, maybe a letter will open their eyes a bit?? What's the point in complaing to everyone else apart from the people who actually upset me? I'll get there in the end and I'll know when i find the right place. Just going to have to accept I'll come across some ignorant people now & then and will have to be more prepared and be armed with a response next time. Mumsnet is such a Godsend when it comes to these kind of issues. Thanks girls - XX

I just wanted to wish you and Lottie luck in finding a Nursery who is willing to treat her as an individual. I don't blame you for feeling upset and admire your calm.

Thanks Bells2, it's nice to know I'm not being an over-sensitive mother and I've decided I'll get a letter off to the schools by the end of this week. They need to know how they made me feel so they learn and don't upset anyone else. Thanks for your support.

As it happens, my DD is coming up for 18 months, can't walk, doesn't talk and can't even pull herself up if she's lying on her back (to which I attribute the fact that she's built like a JCB). So surely these nurseries should be used to dealing with children of all different mobility levels regardless of whether or not they happen to have DS. Hope your letter brings results.

Just read this- oh my god oh my god oh my god!!!!

I think good nurseries are few and far between- but they do exist.

First nursery ds1 went to (2 mornings) at 18 months would leave him sitting in one room whilst all the children were in another "because he liked it" What???? He used to do exactly what he was told which is why he sat there!!

Put him in a recommended nursery (recommended by a friend with an autistic child) and it is brilliant. He is included in everything, he does everything and the other children are absolutely brilliant.

Keep searching and you'll find something. If you're anywhere near me (SW) I would recommend ds1's nursery!

Oh and schools are the same. I was going to Home ed as I thought the schools would be so ignorant, but we have found a wonderful primary school for ds1 and he starts in Septemeber. I was dreading the start of school- now I'm looking forward to it!

Jimjams it's so wonderful when you find the right place isn't it? One less thing to worry about.

Thomcat whereabouts are you based? You should put out a mumsnet cry for recommended nurseries and see what comes back. I know 2 excellent ones in SW Surrey.

Yeah thanks u, I'll do that. i'm in Pinner, so Harrow etc (middlesex). I'll go and do a shout out for suggestions now.

Jum Jams, got the biggest lump in my throat when I read what the first nursery did to your little boy, that's just to nasty to comprehend. So glad it's all sorted for you guys now.

Thomcat I don't know whether you are looking for a state pre-school place or paid for day care, but if it's the former, you can nominate the school of your choice on your statement and then the authority has to come up with pretty good reaons why the school is unsuitable - the onus is on them. It can of course be a long and bloody battle to get the statement...but that's another story.

Hmmm, interesting, what IS the statement????

The statement is when the education authority has to write down what extra needs your child has and whether they extra help/support, the school then has to meet your childs needs. For instance pennys says she needs a physio program to incorporate advice off physios, a speech program to develop more communicative skills taking into account the speech therapist, and a program to develop her self help skills-in pennys case this is toilet training or peeing your pants, and also a broad based early years education program.It is a very long winded process, you have to be reffered to an educational psychologist who assesses them (more than once in our case) then your child has to have a statutory assessment where all the therapists/doctors write reports on your child this then goes to education board who decide whether your child needs a statement. Confusing isnt it. It takes ages we were reffered before pennys 2nd birthday and we have only just got her proposed statement through and penny is now 3 and a half
Hope this helps!

Excellent cheers Fio2.
Look, I'm back here again, and I swore I'd keep away and concentrate on work!

Thomcat most authorities won't or don't like statementing before school, our area is the only one in Surrey that routinely statements preschoolers, because it believes spend money early to spend less later. I think your dd might be too young for them to agree to a statement but you could always try, will do no harm. Good luck.

Thomcat the first port of call should be your physio/speech therapist/portage worker - basically whoever you have the best relationship with. Our brilliant portage worker helped us, as she was funded out of Education budget she knew the ropes. I have heard of one authority who refused to statement preschool, and I thought (maybe mistakenly) this was quite unusual, but in this case my mate appealed and they caved and issued a statement. IMO it is ESSENTIAL before starting pre-school - my DD gets dedicated support - basically an extra member of staff all for her - for 2 out of the 2.5 hours she attends daily. Good luck - let us know what authority you are in case there anyone has relevant experience. We are Hammersmith/Fulham BTW.

I am sure if you want your child to go to special school or you want a 1-2-1 or say physio & SALT advice they have to have a statement dont they?When we asked for penny to go to the special needs nursery all the professionals were saying that she couldnt go because she didnt have a statement, luckily the headmistress had her in on an assessment basis pending a statement but this procedure isnt the norm apparently. I must admit our authority do statement pre school children but seemed quite reluctant to statement penny, dont know why.

Cheers for all advice girls.
I live in Harrow by the way and my Portage woman is lovley so will speak to her. Think I want Charlotte to go to mainstream school at the moment.
Off to south of France now so see you all in just over 2 weeks, oh what bliss.

Sinclair I used to live in that borough whendd1 was born, and she was special needs then (not now). I thought the H/F services were pretty good, although we weren't there at statementing time. Is it still the case ?

Yes I think they are pretty good - as good as any London boro I have heard of. We got what we wanted, bar funding for day care when I was working part time between kids - and that was pretty ambitious of us, just regular day care which we could afford. We had portage from 5/6 months, SALT from 18 months I think, and physio from birth to 18 m when A could walk. Our local DSA branch (london I mean) is compliling a list of how boros shape up - a sort of special needs name and shame - which should raise awareness of disparities. It is a complete lottery - we moved to this area a month before A was born, DS a complete surprise, had we been 1 mile west in Hounslow apparently much lower level of care. However, we are mere beginners - guess the challenges really start once we get to primary school ...

I agree about the lottery. We moved from H and F to Kensington, which was still good but very different in what they offered. Had all sorts of tussles regarding whether they would carry on funding the services dd1 got when we moved. When we moved again to Beds everything died a death with regards to anything for special needs. Went on to have ds2 who was diagnosed with cp, and they thought 1 physio session (40mins) a month, would suffice! Now we have moved to Surrey and we are almost bombarded with facilities for ds2. I really feel it is very unfair that we get such a high standard of care just by changing homes. A lot of poeple are not so fortunate and that doesn't seem right.

we've just started statementing now - got the ball rolling shortly after dd had turned two (it is very difficult to get a statement for the under 2s). The rules have changed though (in April, just our luck!) and the child will now only get a statement if he/she has 'severe and complex special needs'. Anyway, the statutory assessment panel will meet next week to decide if dd qualifies or not - I am not terribly hopeful but willing to fight this tooth & nail and go to appeal if we have to.
Thomcat, it's certainly something to bear in mind for when Lottie is a little bit older and also has been going to nursery/preschool for a while. You have to see how things go - I do think that it's easy-peasy to meet my dd's needs without a statement, but the nursery are really making just minimal effort and taking full advantage of dd's placid and undemanding nature - I want them to be forced to take certain steps. They also seem to consider Makaton complete rocket science, so in my opinion dd needs a classroom assistant who knows Makaton.

ThomCat- even if your LEA don't usually statement young childen- as a parent you can request one. If they turn you down they have to say why and you can take them to tribunal!

I don't think you'll have any problem getting a mainstream place for Charlotte- generally they want children in mainstream unless they realy couldn't cope and Charlotte sounds like she would blossom in the right mainstream place (this is the difficult bit). Ask around and ask other parents of SN kids. For example if you lived here I could tell you the BEST mainstream nursery for SN children (and I could recommend a different one for those of you with children with cp). Parents are the best source for information really. I've found the LEA talks a good game but doesn't necessarily provide what it says it will. The parents know

Have a look at the IPSEA web pages to find out more about statementing.

It is such a lottery, I agree. Dd has only been getting physio once a month, although she is very delayed, and has still not really made that much progress. She has just started at the local special school nursery twice a week, and will get physio and maybe SALT weekly from now on. Hurray, but let's hope it's enough. No one has mentioned statementing yet... She is still having portage as well, which seems to be the best thing at the moment.

Have you all got a copy of the stsementing process from the dfes? Big weighty tome, but delivered free. If you haven't got it I can find the email address to order it if anyone wants.