autism question again

[maggiems]

Can I ask a few autism questions? I have been looking back at older messages relating to this issue and have found myself getting more confused that I was already. I had mentioned some concerns a while ago but had recently decided that there was no way that one of my nearly 4 twins ,Ds2 was even mildly autistic as he is sociable and communicative , but sometimes when I see some of the messages I get a bit paranoid again.
My questions are : I had always thought that if a child plays in a imaginative way that this would imply that they were not autistic as it is one of the areas that an impairment has to occur . I thought that autistic children couldnt play imaginatively because they couldn?t put themselves in another persons shoes. Yet I saw on some previous responses to messages that those who responded felt that autistic children can play imaginatively and pretend to be other people . How does this work? I had been concerned that my DS2 didn?t play as imaginatively as DS1 who narrates stories non stop. However DS2 roleplays and turns sticks into fishing rods etc and used things like toy phones from an early age .I was happy that he was playing imaginatively more and more and then I see that you can be autistic even if you do this? I think I started to think , well what is imaginative play? Is an example where you turn something that resembles something else into that thing, like a stick into a gun or does the fact that it has the shape of a gun to begin with, mean that its not really imaginative play , its just a child noticing a resemblance?

I am also curious about Aspergers. Whats the difference between HFA and Aspergers? Is it that language develops better in someone with AS? I noted that AS is not normally diagnosed until a child is 7 or 8. Is it not noticed because language develops ok and the other signs such as lack of social abilities and communication skills are still there but less so than a person with classic autism? Also would a child with AS also not do the pointing thing or would they develop this skill later on in a spontaneous way or would it be something that would have to be taught. DS2 was about 19 months when he started pointing and I think he may have done it with the while hand for a while. However soon he was pointing things out with his index finger

My last question is would an autistic/as child normally be non communicative and unsociable with adults as well? I know that the big issue is how a child deals with his peers but would an AS/autistic child be more likely to have problems conversing with adults as well? My DS2 didn?t play with other children as early as his twin but now initiates play more

Sorry for the number of questions. They have been niggling at me for a while and I would be interested in hearing what people think. My worries stem from when he was a baby/young toddler and have not been able to shift them completely.Sorry for hijacking the SN board.

These posts have certainly been interesting. As soon as I think I have an understanding of how it all works another message comes along and blows my theory. Beccaboo, don?t know really. Couldn?t say I have a gut feeling anymore as my gut feeling has truly been replaced by paranoia and yes it does make it more difficult having twins. I have posted before but DS2 was referred to the paed at 11 months as he had not pulled himself up. The HV was?nt really worried when I told her this over the phone, however she said it would be expected that he would do that and then she saw that I was worried and got him referred just in case.The paed said his muscle tone was fine but she referred him for speech and occ therapy as his pincer grip was a bit immature and he hadn?t started to wave. I think in hindsight that she wanted to keep an eye on him in case he was showing early autistic signs. Maybe not but I distinctly remember her saying ?I would like him to wave soon? Fortunately I wasn?t as well informed about autism then and didn?t really know why she said that. Didn?t help that I fainted in the surgery also from the shock of her saying ?I don?t know? when I asked if he was going to be slow . Anyway he made great progress and did the waving shortly afterwards and the pointing at about 18 months .Actually was diagnosed with being longsighted at 2.5 years , so not sure if any issue was related to this. He was discharged from therapy at 2 and a half. When the paed saw him I think she was impressed with him interacting with everyone, which led me to believe that I had been correct in the original reasons for her concerns. He has made even more progress since and is now talking well and as I said is very sociable and interactive. Both boys played alongside each other for quite a while but now play together a lot more. I don?t think I have ever got over the whole referring thing and I have made myself paranoid about autism /as for quite a while now. DS2 is such a different child to DS1 so its difficult. I know I have conveyed my worries before but here goes anyway.

Worries
Doesn?t like loud noises although doesn?t go mad. Covers his ears sometimes although not often . Covers the whole ear. Saw someone wrote about children with ASD who said that they cover the front of the ear.He often asks ?Whats that noise?

Used to love Thomas the tank and sometimes used to watch him with his head on the ground. Never did it a lot and sometimes DS1 does it too. Isn?t as much into Thomas anymore. Would still look at his cars with his head on the ground an odd time, I think when he is a bit tired.

Flapped his hands when excited for a while about a year ago . Didn?t do it earlier than that and doesn?t do it anymore . He was always a rhythmic type of baby and used to love watching waves in the sea . He still loves the water although not as much now as he has matured

Has always loved music and as a baby would always dance when asked . Recognises different types of music and instruments . DS1 now recognises it too but DS2 has been doing so for a while.

I have nobody except his brother to compare him with but him imaginative play is not as advanced as DS1. However he is definitely becoming more imaginative and doing things like making his toys talk to each other. He has always liked pretending to be someone else and will say things like ? I don?t want to be a policeman anymore now?. He def understands the difference between real and pretend. What he does sometimes but again not as much lately , is some scripting from the TV. He will turn a chair into a boat and pretend to start to engine , then re-enact scenes from the video . Don?t know if anyone remembers ?Rosie and Jim?. It?s a really old video that a friend gave me and the boys love it. He will also act out Thomas scenes sometimes. However he does understand what he is saying
Was slightly over 18 months pointing. Maybe this had something to do with his sight

Pencil grip not as good as his twin who has always been particularly nimble and not sure who is the more ?normal?.

Good things
Very sociable to everyone he meets. Has been friendly to children for a long time but has only been playing directly with them within the last few months. Is always saying to his twin now ?lets do this and that?.
Has joined in the actions and songs at nursery school since he started last September
No meltdowns .
No obsessions
No issues with food, clothes, hair being cut
Speech has always been age appropriate although DS1 is more advanced. I think DS1 is quite advanced for his age in most areas
Understands things like ?maybe? , ?think? and such slightly more abstract concepts .
Has know all his colours since he was 2
Can do jigsaws
Knows letters and numbers for a while
His ability to follow directions has always been age appropriate. Was able to do things like point to toes at 15 months
He has always pointed out things of interest and is always saying ?Come and see this Mummy?. can follow a point well
Has used symbolic play at the correct age , like playing with phones and pretending to brush hair with or without a toy brush.

Sorry for the length of my message and for taking up time on the SN board. I have probably been looking at the internet too often. It seems to me from books that I have read that there has to be deficiencies in 3 key areas but sometimes when I read the reasons for a diangnosis of auism/ASD it sometimes seems not to be the case. I suppose though it is a communication and social disorder and that?s where the key deficiencies lie. I will probably be proven wrong on that one too

My dd has a language disorder and we recently went to Bibic where she was assessed for asd using the CARS rating scale. Although my dd does have autistic traits when you look at the bigger picture she doesn't fit the criteria. Very good imaginative play skills and I can remember how much notice the SALT took when dd said that the orange crayon she had was a carrot and that the sand she was spreading on pretend toast was butter. I didn't realise how significant that was at the time.

This has been such an interesting thread. My DD1 (4.9years)has just been given a diagnosis of high functioning ASD. Absolutely nothing was picked up on (by myself or medical staff) before she was 2 and half. She pointed, referenced, played with other children appropriately, shared, imaginative play, sociable outgoing etc, etc. To cut a long story short it started becoming apparent that she had some (not major) difficulty understanding what was said to her and with some of her social communication. I would have described her difficulties as a language disorder. Her cousin, now 24 and the lovliest, most clever articulate girl you could meet was diagnosed at age 3 as 'possibly being slightly autistic'. Once I had told medical people this I think their mind was made up. Have talked to a SALT friend who says if she was diagnosed in any other part of the country the diagnosis would probably have been different. I do not think of my daughter as autistic. I see a child who is full of enthusiasm for life, has a wide circle of friends and has a great quirky personality. She is well behaved, has no obsessions etc etc. I do accept she has trouble sometimes knowing how to say the right thing but it seems a social communication disorder (however mild)is considered part of the spectrum. She is making great progress and we love her to bits. As she was my first I had no other child to compare her to so maybe I missed things. Sorry, this doesn't help clarify things. I feel a bit uneasy with how quickly children are labelled. I did not seek a label, it was given to me. I prefer to see how things go with my daughter, if she is like her cousin I think the future will be good. However you never stop worrying. I don't think I knew what worrying really meant until my daughters problems came up.

Thanks again. Newscot, was the language problem the only thing at 2.5 that was an issue? How come she was considered to be ASD at nearly 5 when all other areas seem to be in order, such as pointing, imagination etc. From what you said she just seems not to always know when to say the right thing but she has friends and is sociable. How does that fit? Has she been diagnosed with ASD or AS? I am glad people found the thread interesting even if its the experts opinions that are the interesting bits. Its never happened to me before!

maggiems, DD1 was 2 and a half when we moved to Britain. She started at a nursery for 3 days a week when I started work. They commented initially that she seemed to have trouble understanding what they were saying to her. This didn't concern me as we are in Scotland and I had trouble understanding what people were saying!! Anyway she seemed to settle down and nursery didn't really raise the concern again. When she left that nursery they gave me her observation sheets which told a completely different story.
(I was very angry about this) When she was 4 she started at the LEA nursery. They picked up that things weren't quite right but waited to talk to me until after DD2 was born, about 8 weeks into the year. I was pretty devastated though knew myself at this stage that her language wasn't quite what it should be. So... this is why she was not diagnosed until nearly 5. She has friends but doesn't always seem to know what to say to them- not that this bothers them, though will become more of an issue. She has conversations with friends and with us though I describe them as not being as rich and full as the conversations of other children her age. Her imaginative play is probably a bit along the same lines though she has great fun doing it and plays well with her friends. She can also repeat what you say and will talk to herself at times. As I said before, I often have trouble working out what is normal for a child of her age anyway- the range seems so wide. All I know is that my daughter is enjoying life and just getting on with it- though she is aware she has difficulty finding the right words and this is probably what hurts most.

Thank you newscot. I hope your dd continues to do well.
Monica2, I was reading the messages again and Its interesting how you noted that lack of theory of mind is linked to lack of inagination . I would not really have connected the 2. I was also surprised to hear that a diagnosis of AS is not likely when a child's early development is not consistant with classic autism. I would have thought it would be the other way around, i.e because a child had skipped the classic stages he or she would more likely be classed as something slightly different to autism, ie AS . Ah well another thing to ponder

Maggiems I was surprised too when I first read that (written by Tony Attwood an expert in ASD) because I have read also about many children who are initially diagnosed with autism but then go on to have a diagnosis of AS. Lorna Wing's theory is that an autistic child, when young, is aloof and indifferent to others, whereas and child with AS is passive or makes inappropriate one-sided approaches. Non-verbal communication is severely impaired in both conditions. It was made a lot clearer to me when my friends daughter with HFA came to play with my AS dd and although they had a lot of the same rigid behaviour etc my friends dd has virtually no eye contact where my dd has an inappropriate gaze, my friend's dd also has slightly delayed language, my dd develeped language age appropriately, there were other subtle differences too. My daughter stims and can be echolalic but not to the extent of other classically autistic children I have worked with. Another friend of mine was convinced her ds 5 had AS but after 2 years of assessments has been given a diagnosis of social and communication disorder/delay.

Weird monica- because from that description my ds1 sounds AS, except for the fact that he is non-verbal!

I have a theory that AS tendecies are kind of inherited directly (weird uncles who collect picture of telegraph poles in abundance) whilst autism is more autoimmune- nothing developmental in the family then whack- out of nowhere). Davros' family history is of course is the exception that proves the rule....

That would certainly explain our family Dh loves statistics and talks hours on end about them (he works in research) amongst other traits. In fact there are lots of tendencies in both our extended families. I have a cousin in his late forties who has significant social communication difficulties/obsessive etc still lives at home/never had a relationship/very academic, very AS but he also had and still has poor language, I often wonder where he is on the spectrum (never been diagnosed)