will my asd son ever start talking?

[jilly78]

my ds is 2y10m and is still completely non verbal. i know speech delay is very common in autism. will he always be non verbal or will he eventually start talking? if your dc had speech delay what age did they satrt to talk?

But I would say that since starting PECS he is learning how to communicate - he can confidently make a choice between e.g. banana and biscuits for supper now - he couldn't have make his choice known to us even six months ago.

PECS is great - if I could go back in time I would have started it much earlier with DS2.

I missed Davros' post earlier- we cross posted, but I do completely agree. If your child has a means to communicate in some way then speech becomes less and less important. (And other things become far more of a challenge). I remember being obsessed by speech when ds1 was little. Now his compulsions and behaviour are far more of a problem than his lack of speech. In part this is because he can communicate well, through PECS, eye contact & gesture and since he learned to sign, Makaton.

PECS is fabulous for a non-verbal child- especially if they imitate. And nothing wrong with introducing PECS and Makaton (Davros' son taught me that beautifully).

My ds will use about 2 or 3 PECS (well they are photos of the object in question, real PECS are way too abstract for him) but this is mostly inconsistent (he often hands over the nearest PEC just to 'get it over with'!!!) but Makaton is a complete non-starter; way too complicated for him.

I now don't spend any time wondering when my ds will talk - far more important is whether he will ever come out of nappies, be able to dress himself, etc.

I'd really recommend that you contact your local Speech and Language Therapy department and ask for a referral - or your Health Visitor or GP could do this too. It might be worth looking at an excellent website www,talkingpoint.org.uk, which has loads of information about speech, language and communication development

sorry - I've just re-read some of the other messages and I guess you have been down this route already

Many- apparently makaton can be taught hand over hand with 2 people but tbh if he's making headway with PECS I don't think there's any point. Once imitation kicks in it's easy to teach and very very hard before then. DS1 doesn't use proper signs (he can't reproduce them accurately enough) but he uses toilet, apple and biscuit in a way thats recognisable to those that know him.

His first SALT was Makaton not PECS trained and we wasted many months signing to a boy who couldn't imitate. That was very frustrating!

This thread makes very interesting reading for me, as DS1 who is now 5 1/2 having been completely non-verbal before (he never had speech so didn't regress, iyswim) has started vocalising an awful lot in the last few months.

He still has hardly any 'true' speech, apart from the odd 'tickle' request when I am tickling him and he wants more and his speech is very unclear (its hard to explain but it is like he speaks in the right tune but doesn't know all the lyrics).

It also seems as if he is scared of his own voice, as he speaks very quietly and if you try to sing along with him, he stops and listens to you, rather than both singing together.

On the other hand though, if he is alone listening to the radio, I will often hear him singing along really loudly and he chatters endlessly to himself (albeit in his own language) in his bedroom at night. So it is almost as if he is shy of others hearing his voice.

Despite this and the fact that nearly all his speech is echolia, it is just so wonderful to hear his voice.

As he is so good at repeating adverts from the tv or radio, I cheated a bit yesterday and got him to say 'I love you' by adding '.com' on the end. I could spend hours saying 'I love you, I love you, DS1 say I love you' to no avail, but I only had to say 'I love you.com' (in a television jingle type fashion) once and he repeated it straight away.

Now I know this isn't true communication, but it was so nice to hear him say the words I never thought I would, although DH still thinks I am slightly mad.

I am hoping though that with persistance and using PECS to help label things that his speech may develop from simple echolia to some 'true language' i.e being able to label and request things he wants.

Although I am under no illusion that this may never happen, I also thought 6 months ago that I would never hear his voice, so there is always hope.

I agree with what others have said in that his lack of speech isn't as much of a problem as his behaviour/sensory/obsession issues are. Although it took us a while to realise this.

Graciefer - 'I love you.com' - Genius!

Gosh that sounds positive Graciefer. I know one boy at our school whose speech has really come in in the last year and he's of secondary school age. I don't remember him talking at all really over the last 2 years but this year he's been chatting away -

DS1 used to not be able to sing if anyone else was singing. I'd try and join in and he'd stop. About a year ago he started and now sings along with me very loudly. I love it! Lucy Blackman (non verbal typing adult) writes about that. She said that she used to stop singing if someone else tried to join in because as soon as they did she couldn't hear her voice anymore.

PCF, one thing about PECs is that you have to get through the pain barrier iyswim and be able to say "no" or that something is not available. They have to learn that just asking does not necessarily get. But that is one of the hardest things as you start out be honouring their requests in order for them to want to use PECs. I admit to hiding some pictures but then DS just starts Makatoning away at me!

Oh yes I remember the repeated biscuit presenting. They do get to understand 'no' or 'later' though. I did sometime show him I was putting a symbol away- I'd put it up high (in the days before climbing) then bring it out again later.

Yes we had that too. DS2 also got used to 'later' - doesn't like it, but accepts it.

This just reinforces (ha ha) my experience that you have to teach imitation along with most other things with ASD. You also have to actively teach PECs. Showing it to them and expecting a response isn't going to work usually. I also take issue (in the nicest possible way) as I don't believe that ABA doesn't work for all children, I think it does if it is done properly and at the right level and moved on rigourously. But the time does come when that groundwork has been done and other things need to be added or everything just becomes more natural, spontaneous etc, that is what its all about imo.

Davros - I'd be interesting to learn what is the thinking/theory on how to teach imitation? Nobody has ever advised me to do this or that it could be done with my ds. He is generally unconcerned about what anyone else is doing (always has been), although he does take in what is going on around him.

We did it using ABA Manny.

At 5 he 'learned' to imitate certain actions in a certain room (it was a totally learned response) At 7 we revisited (again using ABA) and he completely 'got' it and generalised so could really imitate naturally.

Davros used ABA as well (she is the Mnet ABA Queen )

Well, I've been called some things in my time! What you do is use ABA principles, although I am rusty so others please add/correct - use hand-over-hand prompting to get child to "imitate" and reinforce immediately, use simple and consistent language "do this" for imitation, NOT "do X" which is another skill requiring receptive language. Work on one imitation only, then with a little success introduce a second one and work on them randomly using prompting and reinforcement. In ABA, usually to check child is actually copying and not just guessing or taking a chance, you introduce a third "distractor" which is not used but still present. This makes sense to me but now I'm wondering if that all holds good for imitation???? Jimjams, Spil, Socci etc please advise!
Imitation is the basis for most other skills, the other one is matching and the above certainly makes sense for matching. YOu then throw these requests in as and when and hopefull copying becomes second nature..... it certainly did with my DS and to this day (he is nearly 13) I can say "do this" and he will do whatever it is without thinking..... within reason! The other skill above "do x", "do Y" (I can't remember what it is usually called, Non-verbal imitation or is that the fancy name for imitation?), also works consistently with the ground work and my DS will usually respond as long as he recognises the words being used and is listening........

SOunds good to me Davros.

Poor ds1 hears the slightest clap now and starts clapping along ('do this': clap is a common starting point because clapping can be easily physically prompted).

It does all sound a bit basic and pointless, "do this" (Clap) and child claps. But when you think that imitation really is the basis for SOOO much in life, it is a skill worth teaching even in the most basic way with a view, obiously not to your child clapping for the rest of their life and nothing else, but clapping and lots of other things spontaneously as well as taught.

DS1 changed enormously when he learned to imitate. It was like he suddenly realised how what we did could relate to him.

So in the past we'd dance- he'd watch. After imitation was generalised we'd dance, he'd join in.

It was a very profound difference. He's 9 now and I still enjoy seeing him imitate.

(Although it's not all good as we have to be careful what we do in front of him - opening something using a special method no good now as he watches and copies. Before you could do stuff in front of him and it was meaningless).

And after imitation I'd find plastic bowls of flour and eggs in an oven that was on Sort of half imitated. BUt I suppose the point is he started learning by watching and made massive leaps and bounds.

I think lack of imitation was his biggest learning difficulty. he still has lots of problems, still has SLD's - but the biggest block has been removed. And the joy of not having to teach everything hand over hand.