Mainstream vs DSP near Greenwich/Bexley

[Girlgirlboygirl]

My DS has recieved EHCP last month so we missed open days 2024. As he is in year 5 and has ASD we will need to make a choice before schools open up for general viewing and open days 2025.

I'm hoping to hear from anyone who has a child with EHCP in a mainstream only secondary school and those with children in special provisions.

If you were looking again what questions would you ask knowing what you know now.

My DS struggles academically but is functioning well in a mainstream primary however they do have an ASD provision and allow him to make use of all the facilities and good SEN support. He can have emotional outbursts or shutdown completely and refuse to engage (in lesson ect) so interested in how secondary school deal with children displaying this behaviour.

Schools we were looking at Harris Academy Mainstream size is good.
Crown woods, Thomas Tallis the size of the school puts me off though...

Not sure about John Roan, Bexley Grammar Halley Academy but very interested to hear of personal experiences and advice in makong choice and the process.

Thank you....

Questions I would ask:
How many DC with EHCPs do they have on roll?
Do they have a quieter room/lunch club DC who are overwhelmed with the canteen/playground can go?
Where do DC who are overwhelmed in a lesson go to?
Do they allow those who struggle with the hustle and bustle to move lessons 5 mins early or late?
What transition activities do they offer for those with SEN?
What support do they offer for those who struggle to make friends?
What support do they provide other DC with similar needs? (The provision in DS’s EHCP must be provided, but the answer can help you ascertain how inclusive and proactive they are).
How does the school reduce/prevent sensory overwhelm?
Do they set?
Class sizes?
Do they have a SEN homework club?
Do they allow DC to use noise cancelling headphones/eardefenders? (This is a reasonable adjustment but you would be surprised how many are reluctant to allow it.)
Do they have DC who have reasonable adjustments to the uniform policy?
Do they have DC who can’t cope with the hustle and bustle of arriving/leaving school and have different arrangements for arriving at school (such as arriving 5/10 mins late via reception)/leaving (such as leaving 5 mins early)?
Is the site secure?

If you are looking at a place in a DSP:
Number of students in DSP?
Ratio (and type) of staff in the DSP?
What proportion of the week are DC expected to integrate into MS? Does this % change as DC move up the school?
What lessons do DC typically have in the DSP and what lessons do they attend MS lessons for? Is there flexibility in this if DC need a more bespoke offering?
What qualifications do DC in the DSP typically sit?
Do they have professionals on site or visiting? If visiting, how often do they visit and how many DC do they see?
Do they have a sensory room?
Where do the pupils move on to after Y11?

When talking about DS’s needs to professionals, it can help to reframe refuses to can’t. Some professionals see refuse as a choice.

I don't want to be too outing but I do know people with DC in some of these schools. Some with ASD and/or an EHCP.

The key thing I would say is to ensure your DS's EHCP is fit for purpose. The support he needs must be detailed and quantified. Does it specify who is going to support him and how? It is unlikely that your DS will be able to use the autism provision resources if they aren't in the provision at secondary. There are however other places that DC with autism are able to go in some of the schools you mention if they are getting overwhelmed.

Locally, Thomas Tallis seems to be the 'magnet' school for DC with additional needs. This comes with its plus points and its minus points. Any school with a reputation for being 'good' with SEN ends up becoming overwhelmed with students - and with nowhere near enough resources to support them properly.

I am also aware that some schools try and 'manage out' DC with what they deem to be 'challenging' behaviours so that is something to be aware of. When you look around, do ask how lessons/homework/uniform are differentiated and that will give you an idea of their ethos.

Given your brief description of your DC, it sounds like it might be worth exploring the autism provision units in the borough. I believe Tallis, John Roan, Halley and Woolwich boys have one. (This one caters for ASD and MLD so you will need to check the criteria.)
If a student is in a designated resource provision, it is easier to withdraw them from lessons if they become overwhelmed. The DC usually have at least 1 to 2 support in all lessons too. If your DS has a good EHCP though, even if he's not in an ASD unit, it should offer him the support he requires.

In your position, I would definitely be making appointments to try and see the heads of the units as soon as possible. Also see if the Sencos at all the schools you mention will be prepared to meet with you. They are often very busy though.

@BrightYellowTrain The OP mentions a grammar school on their list. I'm tagging you as you are a font of wisdom, I hope that's OK! Can a DC with an EHCP apply for a grammar school place if they don't pass the 11+? It's not something I had considered before.
The OP mentions that their DC is 'struggling academically' so I would assume that they might find it a challenge to pass it?

ensure your DS's EHCP is fit for purpose

@Toomanyminifigs of course it’s OK to tag me. ^This is so very important, isn’t it? So many are not, and some parents don’t realise until their DC isn’t getting the support they need.

State grammars, like other state schools, must be named if they are the parents’ preference unless:
-The setting is unsuitable for the age, ability, aptitude or special educational needs (“SEN”) of the child or young person; or
-The attendance of the child or young person would be incompatible with the provision of efficient education for others; or
-The attendance of the child or young person would be incompatible with the efficient use of resources.
If the pupil fails the 11+ (not deemed academically suitable/not deemed qualified for selective grammar/whatever phrasing that LA/school wants to use), the LA and school mostly state the first applies. I have successfully challenged this on occasion where the result was unexpected/explained by something other than academic ability (e.g. by a meltdown related to poor support during the 11+). I suspect the grammar wouldn’t be the best environment even if OP's DS passed.

Thank you for clarifying that @BrightYellowTrain I know you spend considerable time giving help and support to many posters so I didn't want to assume you were available to answer a specific query.

I did think that grammar schools may use the 'unsuitable' setting argument re the 11+. It's interesting to know it can be challenged though.

OP - I also meant to say that some LA's try and get parents to name more than 1 setting. You don't have to do this if your DC has an EHCP, regardless of what they tell you. If of course there is more than 1 setting you would be happy for your DC to attend then you can.
Do be wary of this tactic though as they may try and push you into naming 3.

some LA's try and get parents to name more than 1 setting. You don't have to do this if your DC has an EHCP, regardless of what they tell you.

To add to this, despite what some LAs claim, you don’t have to complete the LAs transition form either or name the school before getting the draft following the phase transfer review (which should be held in the autumn term of Y6).

@Toomanyminifigs there was a case a few years ago involving Reading Grammar, EHRC and the RNIB. About a boy who was unable to sit the 11+ due to failures by the Consortium. If you want a google.

@Toomanyminifigs and @BrightYellowTrain

Wow I wasn't expecting such good advice thank you. I realise I only wrote Harris not the school it was Harris Falconwood, funnily 8 yrs ago with my eldest also ASD but no EHCP we did not like Harris it at all, but this time I felt it was warm and I could really see him there but need to really question them on their SEN support as it wasn't clear how robust it was and have heard some pupils with sen have struggled. It is the closest and could see him travelling alone at some point, I can't see him travelling solo with some of the others. I don't want to set him up to fail.

I could be mistaken but I was under impression the bexley grammar school has a DSP but could be wrong.

Thank you both so much, I will be making many appointments when schools go back. All my DS is fixated on is going to his cousins school smh so I know he will be disappointed either way. But in my heart I want mainstream if I'm honest with myself, I'm worried about bulling if he's in a provision and also not having opportunity to sit most exams or missing out on year group trips etc. Maybe that's silly.

I thought we must pick 3 schools so that's good to know. All these questions are very very helpful for me to put to them.

His EHCP is good I believe with timings and frequency of support and who by. I do worry if it will put some schools off.

If your DS does go to a DSP, there's no reason he can't sit exams. I know of a DC who was in a DSP and he got 10 GCES - some at grade 9. Each DSP is run on different lines though and will have a different profile of child, which is why it's so important to visit them. As far as I'm aware, all DC in DSPs go on all trips - it's just that they usually have support. DC not in DSPs may have support too so there's no difference there.

A DSP does make it easier to say drop a foreign language in order to do speech and language. There's less of a 'battle' as these things are built into the structure. However, if a student does want to do all subjects, they can.

You don't say how your DS is socially. One of things a DSP can do is give somewhere for students to go during lunch/break times if needed. Although they don't have to. DSPs should encourage students to go to clubs, hang out with friends etc. But it can be useful to have a 'safe space'.

From speaking to friends, sadly bullying does occur in mainstream anyway. Young teens can be cruel and will often pick up on 'difference' regardless of if a student is in a DSP or not.
Having said that, I do know of several DC with ASD who are doing fine in mainstream so it is definitely possible.

You are wise to be thinking about it and looking around now though.

I would also say that you may be able to get transport from the LA if it's decided that a DSP setting is required for your DS.

Also, don't worry about schools being 'put off' by your DS's EHCP. As BrightYellowTrain says, there are very few legal reasons a school (that isn't independent) can turn a DC down. I would say it's better for everyone that a school is aware of what will need to be provided for a DC from the off, rather than finding out further down the line when the wheels are starting to come off.

With most DSPs/SRPs, and if I remember correctly all the ones you mention, the mainstream school should be named in I and the unit provision covered in F of the EHCP because most units don’t have separate registrations.

It has been a while since I supported anyone considering Bexley Grammar. If I remember correctly, Bexley LA stopped commissioning SRP places there a couple of years ago. I don’t know if they have restarted or if Bexley Grammar runs an informal SRP. And it is still a grammar school.

Trip arrangements vary depending on the school, but DC with disabilities, whether in DSPs or not, shouldn't be discriminated against.

I’m not sure bullying is more likely in DSPs/SRPs.

Exams available to DC in provisions vary depending on the DSP/SRP. Some only offer a reduced number, but in others, where appropriate, it’s possible to sit 8/9/10 GCSEs.

The curriculum offered in DSPs/SRPs varies in younger years, too. IME, the level of flexibility in what MS lessons are attended varies depending on the school. For example, some routinely withdraw from languages and there’s no flexibility in that.