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Is this really ADHD?

62 replies

blossomhill · 29/10/2004 17:17

A few weeks ago I posted about dd and that the paed. had mentioned that he felt dd had ADHD.
Dd can be very hyperactive but we have noticed a pattern. Dd's hyperactivity is really bad when she is at school. This week (it's half-term) I can honestly say we have not seen any ADHD type behaviours at all! We also noticed a huge improvement in her behaviour in the summer holidays.
Can a child with true ADHD switch it on and off? I didn't think so!
I also recently bought the Dr Christopher Green ADHDbook and it says that children with language disorders (dd definitely has this 100%) can mimic ADHD behaviours.
Any advice on this gratefully received. Have gone off of the medication idea and am going to try an organic diet (hopefully). If anyone has advice on this again I would be really grateful!
Thanks in advance Blossomhillxx

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blossomhill · 30/10/2004 00:39

According to this book as well 50% of children with language disorders have ADHD. They are also the hardest to deal with or words to that effect.

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mrsforgetful · 30/10/2004 01:02

that book extract is very interesting....but i'd love him to meet Thomas!!!!

the more i chat to you i think you are right to not medicate...as i said tom as 7 when we started....and a tall 7 at that!!! At 5 i feel though challenging i was still coping....at 7 it was my idea to medicate...the paed was certain he was more AS then than ADHD....and said that the med woukldn't work unles he had ADHD...so we almost tried the med to eliminate ADHD....and TBH when it worked i think that is why for the next year i refused to 'entertain' AS....as i believed that he must only have ADHD....but by age 9 things got harder.

blossomhill · 30/10/2004 01:08

The way I feel right now MrsF is that no I don't want to medicate. If you met dd it would be fairly obvious that she is different and has a language problem/concentration difficulties. She is just so tiny still and we have had a really good week. We had a successful shopping trip and went to the park and she made 4 little friends.... sorry to go on but it's little bits of progress like that I cling on to!
I am not saying we will never medicate, just not now! I think we'll review again in a year.
Have you got the Christopher Green book? I got mine off of Amazon for £7 inc p&p
Speak soon bhx

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Chocol8 · 30/10/2004 09:46

I must admit, I don't agree with Dr Green about ADHD/AS. My ds is excessively lively, very verbal (was singing away at the top of his voice this morning and nothing was gonna stop him) and I feel that at this moment in time is probably equal in ADHD/AS traits.

His consultant has said that the AS traits are increasing as the ADHD is being medicated and from what I have read on MN, they can drastically increase from the ages of 8 or 9. I have certainly noticed this.

We went to Tescos yesterday and ds bumped into a classmate - it was quite painful to see how he interacted with his friend, who in comparison appeared to be "laid back" and "cool". My ds was desperately trying to (for want of a better word), impress his friend, although on this occasion he did stop short of hugging him, which I was pleased about. His male friends have often said that they don't want to be hugged - but the girls don't mind it so much.

It is so obvious to me and other parents that he has excellent social skills but not the skills of his peers - maybe he is more advanced - ds seemed yesterday to be quickly figuring out in his head how he should address his friend but when he did it, it seemed stilted and not flowing iyswim?

What I was trying to say there was that he does not fit in with the groups that Dr Green stated at all. He does seem to fit most of the criteria of the book he wrote on AS however, and I have lent this to his class teacher in the hope she can see what she is dealing with, i.e. not an overactive child but one with an awful lot going on in his head at the same time.

MrsF, please could I CAT you? x

beccaboo · 30/10/2004 09:49

Hi blossomhill, no of course I don't mind you asking. No, we don't have dx as yet, happening in January. From previous posts I think ds does sound similar to your dd, but I also think there's probably more to it with ds. Paed has already mentioned AS/PDD on basis of observations so far. His eye contact isn't good. At nursery, he's very good with structured activities and tasks, but really struggles in the free play sessions, and doesn't seem to understand how to interact with other children - although he wants to, and does try.

His language was very delayed, but he is catching up quite a bit now. And he'll be three next month, so he's still a tot - I think it must be harder to tell when they're so small?

How is your dd's language progressing, is the language unit helping?

blossomhill · 30/10/2004 10:09

Hi Beccaboo

Yes dd was the same. She didn't really say anything at all until she was 2-2.5 and her communication skills from 1-3 were quite poor. The SALT mentioned language disorder at about 2 and I have to agree it is definitely a disorder and not a delay. What a disorder basically means is that with language you have different parts and children that are delayed are delayed in all of them areas. Dd is delayed in some, age appropriate in others and advanced in others, therefore disordered. Infact one of her SALT reports states that dd is processing language differently.
Dd too finds free-play hard but it is something that we are all targeting and she is getting better. At 3 dd didn't interact very well but since being in the unit she has come on so much and has got some "real" friends. She still needs a lot of help with this and again it is another target!
Dd has progressed immensely and I think it must be down to the unit. She made 18 months progress in 1 year and her speech is very clear cut and quite posh (funny because we are not!)
The unit has worked wonders for dd as she has the best of both worlds. 70% mainstream with full support from language staff and 30% intensive language/SALT the rest.
Dd is also a veyr strong reader. Most children with difficulties in one area outshine in another I think.
The progress dd has made from the age your ds is to now is unbelievable. I do believe getting the schooling right is crucial though.
You are more than welcome to CAT me if you want to ask any more questions as we are a bit further down the "road" than you

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mrsforgetful · 30/10/2004 10:55

cHOCS....YOU READ MY MIND....I HAVE ALREADY cat you LAST NIGHT!!!!xxxx
CAT ME IF YOU DON'T GET IT!

tallulah · 31/10/2004 10:01

CarrieG, I see everyone else has ignored your comments but honestly I am so sick of this sort of comment that I couldn't let it go. Of COURSE this kid is different as altar boy & army cadet. Children with ADHD thrive on a very strict routine because it has no surprises & they know what to expect. it's exactly the same reason as why my DS gets on great with adults who find him wonderfully polite (17th century polite, as I've mentioned before) yet his peers find him weird & he struggles to communicate with him. Similarly he can't concentrate in class & if I give him instructions they are in very small pieces, but he can fixate for hours on a computer game. It is part of the syndrome. In our case, diet has no effect whatsoever. I'm sure I've read research that totally disproves the diet theories but I haven't got time to search for it now.

It is just SO frustrating as the mother of a child diagnosed by a recognised medical doctor/psychiatrist as having ADHD, to keep reading this same crap about over-diagnosis.

jmb1964 · 01/11/2004 00:04

Tallulah - don't be upset by this - everyone else on here knows what goes on in real life, and that kind of stuff really p's me off as well.
BH - our ds1 has a dx of AS, but I thought at the beginning he had ADHD, and am now wondering about it again. Dh asked if it would be a good thing or a bad thing if I was right - difficult - good if it meant more hope of having something to treat him with, bad if we ended up completely angst-ridden over the medication question..
ATM we're all just exhausted by ds1 (7) - even when he's in a good mood he never stops, and when he's irritable at the moment he torments dd2 (3) and then she starts screaming, but ds1 just goes ON AND ON AND ON...

blossomhill · 01/11/2004 07:35

Jmb I have found out that soemtimes it is hard to distinguish between the 2 but according to Dr Green they are completely different.
I find the whole langauge disorder, adhd, autism, aspergers, dyspraxia thing so had as they all tend to overlap don't they? You never have a clear cut case!
I really hope you manage to find out exactly what is going on soon. Have you got any more appointments with anyone?
BH

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throckenholt · 01/11/2004 08:34

I haven't time to read the whole thread in detail - but I would geuss having a language disorder would make school very trying. I can imagine feeling that I couldn't say what I wanted, and feel the odd one out, and I can imagine a typical response may be to lose interest and get bored with the activities - I guess that would result in ADHD like response. It is probably tiring as well - my boys all get quite hyper when they are tired.

Home during the holidays must be a much easier environment for so she doesn't get so frustrated and hyper.

No practical help really - but is there anything more you can do to help the language problem - os at least talk to her about what she feels and why she does what she does.

blossomhill · 01/11/2004 09:09

Throkenholt

Thanks for your advice

I don't know how much you know about language disorders but children with these difficulties often have problems understanding certain concepts. There is no way dd would know why she was behaving the way she is and even if she did she couldn't yet convey that to me.
Dd is in a language unit so we feel when she is at home we try and lay off the therapy as much as possible otherwise her whole day revolves around therapy - if that makes sense? I sometimes feel it is the intesitivity of school that makes her become hyper (almost a release) when she has finished as she has to conform all day at school.
Unfortunately with things like ADHD, language difficulties/disorders/autism/aspergers/dyspraxia there is often a degree of overlap and you don't know what is causing the other. It still makes my head hurt sometimes.

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throckenholt · 01/11/2004 09:30

my DH always says his sister was a model student at school and a nightmare at home - she couldn't manage being good all day ! She had no language problems by the way.

I really symapthise with you - it must be hard to watch her trying to cope with her problem (and if it were me I would find it very hard to stay calm and patient all the time - even when I knew what was the root problem).

Just a thought - is your dd keen on drawing ? (my boys aren't so far). If so maybe you could encourage her to draw out her feelings - even if she can't verbalise things maybe putting them on paper in some way may help.

lars · 01/11/2004 17:31

Hi blossomhill, this sounds realy similar to my ds. The child phsy said to me that a child would show no concentration at all. Although he said other phsy could disagree with him, he said the real ADHD is very small number of children and he said people/doctors like to put labels on children.
I am really not sure, although he said my ds has a developmental delay, cannot conform to school and is younger then his years, but is bright.
Does this sound like your dd?

blossomhill · 01/11/2004 17:38

Hi Lars

Long time no see!!!! I hope you are okay, I do think about you from time to time.
Yes your ds does sound similar to my dd although mine although my dd does also have what they call a co-morbid condition - language disorder!
She has a very high IQ but emotionaly I would say is about a year behind her peers!

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lars · 01/11/2004 17:52

Blossom hill,Thanks for your kind words and it's nice to know i've been missed.
I have not been on mumsnet for a while, just feel exhusted with the strain of ds and holding down a part time job. Constant phone calls at school again.
Anyway, i would investigate the school thing a bit more as you get more professionals involved, sometimes it shows the school in a different light. What I mean is now i have a professional education support worker trying to find out the triggers in school and may be your dd doesn't express her frustration well and has difficulty saying what's really upsetting her at school.
What is the school like are they to quick to tell you what she has done wrong? or are they really supportive and want to try to find out the reasons for the behaviour. I know my ds doesn't like school and I know the school is only to quick to phone but not to quick to say how good he has been. larsxx

blossomhill · 01/11/2004 19:56

Hi Lars

Well dd is in a brilliant school, I couldn't ask for more really. She is in a language unit attached to a mainstream school and accesses all sorts of services. behaviour is one thing they do target and the school are well aware of her limitations. The school personally do no think dd has ADHD, they feel it is all related to her language disorder.

Infact had the paediatricians report today and this was part of the summary:-

xxx reading and understanding are progressing well. She is hyperactive with a short attention span and invades personal space.

It's funny as today dd has been off school sick. About 1pm she came down with her whole uniform in her hand saying she "needed to go to school as all her friends would be missing her!" it's little things like that which make me feel she must be happy. I do understand it must be hard for her especially being the youngest in Yr1 (she was 5 end of August). She is also supported by a language assisitant constantly so that is re-assuring!

Hope you are feeling a bit better in yourself lately too! BHxxx

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lars · 02/11/2004 09:54

Hi Blossomhill,
The school sound really great and just the type of support your ds needs.
If it was me I think I would concentrate on the language side , she is no doubt frustrated and is only young.BTW do they use visual aids with your ds at school? As this may help her.
It does sound more like a developmental delay, rather than ADHD. The good news is I was told they will grow out of it. Obviously i'm not a Doctor but I can share my experience with you and I have listen to all sorts of advice from the medical professionals.
As for the drugs for ADHD, I was told a last resort and doesn't actually change anything, just makes the child not so hyper active.
They have to learn to control their anger /frustration. Which the drugs don't do, this has to be taught. Also they do not like to recommend to young children due to possible side effects.
Hope this is some help! larsxx

blossomhill · 02/11/2004 09:59

Hi Lars

Did you say my dd sounds like she has a developmental delay/ I wasn't sure if you was talking about dd or your ds!!!

Dd definitely doesn't have a developmental delay as she has a high IQ and everyone that sees her always says how intelligent she is! The problems are all (mainly) in the area if language. Infact I think that can be a problem in itself sometimes can't it?

Really confused about the medication. Infact today I feel really drained as I feel so anxious about what to do for the best. I worry so much about her, it's unhealthy!

Anyway Speak soon BHx [smile[

Not sure what

OP posts:
blossomhill · 02/11/2004 10:00

Don't know where the "Not sure what" came from

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lars · 02/11/2004 10:08

Blossom hill,
As you describe a language problem this can be a developmental delay- comes in all different forms. You can have a high iQ, just like ADHD children it's not to do with intelligence you may be delayed in language or social skills.
Does this make sense?
It also could be that she is bored at school and needs more stimulation as she has a high IQ. Some children play up at school when they are bored. larsxx

mrsforgetful · 02/11/2004 10:20

TALLULAH.......know exactly how you feel.....people yet again going on about ADHD who don't LIVE with it.

You said your son can play computer games for hours....people need to understand that a short attention span generally does not mean 100%- as ADHD people can often HYPERFOCUS (as your son and mine can) - this is an area that a man called HALLOWELL (author of a great book DRIVEN TO DISTRACTION...ABOUT adhd) - explains well....yet doctors etc here cannont accept that ADHD affected kids/adults can focus.

Teachers miss out on a massive oppertunity to 'tap into' the childs 'way of thinking'....IF they used this area that the child can 'hyperfocus' to involve the general day to day school work....then they'd be amazed how 'creative aa& focussed ' the child can be.....BUT STILL HAVING ADHD.

Eg....Tom at age 4-8 loved a playstation game called 'Crash Bandicoot'....so 1 teacher he had let him write stories about it instead of the set work...in those stories he would be more creative...use better punctuation and write a bit neater. In addition he would draw detailed pictures. Then for numeracy she would ask him about 'how many apples did CRASH need to eat to get a new life....that being based on the fact that the character ate 100 apples to get a life.....so she'd say...if he has 74....how many more did he need.She'd also use apples in numeracy worksheets......hope this makes sense.

obviously..... a child cannot just do schoolwork related to what his 'hyperfocus' is all the time.....but usesd in 'non-essential' work can do 2 things- 1 is to show the teacher just how much is locked away in the childs mind- waiting to be expressed.....and 2 gives the child enjoyment and satisfaction in what they have produced

So.....back to MEDICATION....... (for an older child....as we started drugs at 7rs....not sure if i would have tried them before that)......

Well....like LARS says the drugs don't CHANG anything....a person with ADHD has to learn strategies/methods to help them cope....however.... my son now almost 11 said at age 7 that 'the tablets stop all his wires getting tangled and mixing up his ideas'.....now over the years what has become obvious to me is that though the meds don't FIX ADHD....what they do is give us a 'window in time' to teach him these strategies.....there is no use 'teaching' him how to cross a road safely when at 7 he was either wildly pulling my arm and was a danger to anyone in his path...or at worst running straight into the road......however with the meds....he learnt to stand still and really look at traffic....not just turn his head and 'look' like he was looking.

The MEDS will ALWAYS be a heated debate.....and i still worry what the future will hold.....however the fact is that METHYLPHENIDATE (RITALIN etc) is a STIMULANT drug which STIMULATES the area of the brain that we use to CONCENTATE/FOCUS and i suppose be CALM.

So this explains why now at 10 my son will ask for his medication because HE chooses to feel calm,focussed and able to concentrate......so for now i will accept that!

mrsforgetful · 02/11/2004 10:27

TALLULAH......

Back to that American i mentioned .... HALLOWELL....

Point 8 is the bit about HYPERFOCUS

Suggested Diagnostic Criteria For Attention Deficit Disorder In Adults
by Edward M. Hallowell, MD and John J. Ratey, MD 7/9/95

Note: These criteria are based on extensive clinical experience but have not yet been statistically validated by field trials. Consider a criterion met only if the behaviour is considerably more frequent than that of most people of the same mental age.

A. A chronic disturbance in which at least twelve of the following are present:

  1. a sense of underachievement, of not meeting one's goals (regardless of how much one has accomplished) We put this symptom first because it is the most common reason an adult seeks help. "I just can't get my act together," is the frequent refrain. The person may be highly accomplished by objective standards, or may be floundering, stuck with a sense of being lost in a maze, unable to capitalise on innate potential.

  2. difficulty getting organised A major problem for most adults with ADD. Without the structure of school, without parents around to get things organised for him or her, the adult may stagger under the organisational demands of everyday life. The supposed "little things" may mount up to create huge obstacles. For the want of a proverbial naila missed appointment, a lost check, a forgotten deadline their kingdom may be lost.

  3. chronic procrastination or trouble getting started Adults with ADD associate so much anxiety with beginning a task, due to their fears that they won't do it right, that they put it off, and off, which, of course, only adds to the anxiety around the task.

  4. many projects going simultaneously; trouble with follow-through - a corollary of #3. As one task is put off, another is taken up. By the end of the day, or week, or year, countless projects have been undertaken, while few have found completion.

  5. tendency to say what comes to mind without necessarily considering the timing or appropriateness of the remark. Like the child with ADD in the classroom, the adult with ADD gets carries away in enthusiasm. An idea comes and it must be spoken, tact or guile yielding to child-like exuberance.

  6. an ongoing search for high stimulation The adult with ADD is always on the lookout for something novel, something in the outside world that can catch up with the whirlwind that's rushing inside.

  7. a tendency to be easily bored - a corollary of #6. Boredom surrounds the adult with ADD like a sinkhole, ever ready to drain off energy and leave the individual hungry for more stimulation. This can easily be misinterpreted as a lack of interest; actually it is a relative inability to sustain interest over time. As much as the person cares, his battery pack runs low quickly.

  8. easy distractibility, trouble focusing attention, tendency to tune out or drift away in the middle of a page or a conversation, often coupled with an ability to hyperfocus at times The hallmark symptom of ADD. The "tuning out" is quite involuntary. It happens when the person isn't looking, so to speak, and the next thing you know, he or she isn't there. The often extraordinary ability to hyperfocus is also usually present, emphasising the fact that this is a syndrome not of attention deficit but of attention inconsistency.

  9. often creative, intuitive, highly intelligent Not a symptom, but a trait deserving of mention. Adults with ADD often have unusually creative minds. In the midst of their disorganisation and distractibility, they show flashes of brilliance. Capturing this "special something" is one of the goals of treatment.

  10. trouble going through established channels, following proper procedure Contrary to what one might think, this is not due to some unresolved problem with authority figures. Rather it is a manifestation of boredom and frustration: boredom with routine ways of doing things and excitement around novel approaches, and frustration with being unable to do things the way they're supposed to be done.

  11. impatient; low tolerance for frustration Frustration of any sort reminds the adult with ADD of all the failures in the past. "Oh no," he thinks, "here we go again." So he gets angry or withdraws. The impatience has to do with the need for stimulation and can lead others to think of the individual as immature or insatiable.

  12. impulsive, either verbally or in action, as in impulsive spending of money, changing plans, enacting new schemes or career plans, and the like This is one of the more dangerous of the adult symptoms, or, depending on the impulse, one of the more advantageous.

  13. tendency to worry needlessly, endlessly; tendency to scan the horizon looking for something to worry about alternating with inattention to or disregard for actual dangers Worry becomes what attention turns into when it isn't focused on some task.

  14. sense of impending doom, insecurity, alternating with high-risk-taking This symptom is related to both the tendency to worry needlessly and the tendency to be impulsive.

  15. mood swings, depression, especially when disengaged from a person or a project Adults with ADD, more than children, are given to unstable moods. Much of this is due to their experience of frustration and/or failure, while some of it is due to the biology of the disorder.

  16. restlessness One usually does not see, in an adult, the full-blown hyperactivity one may see in a child. Instead one sees what looks like "nervous energy": pacing, drumming of fingers, shifting position while sitting, leaving a table or room frequently, feeling edgy while at rest.

  17. tendency toward addictive behaviour The addiction may be to a substance such as alcohol or cocaine, or to an activity, such as gambling, or shopping, or eating, or overwork.

  18. chronic problems with self-esteem These are the direct and unhappy result of years of conditioning: years of being told one is a klutz, a spaceshot, an underachiever, lazy, weird, different, out of it, and the like. Years of frustration, failure, or of just not getting it right to do lead to problems with self-esteem. What is impressive is how resilient most adults are, despite all the setbacks.

  19. inaccurate self-observation People with ADD are poor self-observers. They do not accurately gauge the impact they have on other people. This can often lead to big misunderstandings and deeply hurt feelings.

  20. Family history of ADD or manic-depressive illness or depression or substance abuse or other disorders of impulse control or mood Since ADD is genetically transmitted and related to the other considerations mentioned, it is not uncommon (but not necessary) to find such a family history.

B. Childhood history of ADD (It may have been formally diagnosed, but in reviewing the history the signs and symptoms were there.

C. Situation not explained by other medical or psychiatric condition.

jakbrown · 02/11/2004 10:32

Mrs Forgetful, sorry to hijack, but am taken aback by this post. This is my step-brother TO A TEE. Now 27, He was diagnosed with ADD as a 10-year-old but because of various factors, did not receive any specialist input/treatment. Unfortunately he is currently a heroin addict and despite going into rehab time after time cannot stick to it. He says that heroin makes him feel 'normal' and able to cope. We have an extensive history of addiction in our family. It is very sad.

lars · 02/11/2004 10:49

This subject is really interesting as I have said i'm no Doctor but there are so many different opinions out there by the medical professional.

I do think doctors do label quickly and I know there is much debate on this subject and very little 'real' help out there for children and families going through this.

Mrs Forgetful make perfect sense about the drugs once you tried it all, the drugs are the next step and I suppose this is why they get recommended to children from age 7 onwards. As usually parents and children and have gone through hell before. As with my ds i have not ruled out ADHD as i can relate to the difficulties and the lack of control and understanding the child has. larsxx