AS and imagination

[sphil]

Just had a really interesting conversation with DS1 (6). We've suspected for some time he has AS traits, with dyspraxia being the main 'symptom'. He was asking me why DS2 (5, severe ASD) doen't like playing with toys and I explained that some people with autism find it hard to use their imagination. He thought for a while and then said "But I never pretend". I listed all the games he plays (which to me and others look like extremely involved imaginary games) but he just kept saying 'But that's not pretending, it's real'.
'OK, I said, what about when you and Nanny were playing 'Raven' the other day? You weren't really a warrior were you, you were DS1 pretending to be a warrior'. He got quite agitated at this point (the effort of trying to explain himself I think) and said 'NO - I was really playing Raven'. So I then used the example of David Tennant playing Doctor Who as an example of 'pretend'" and he said (very patiently and slowly as if I really didn't get it) 'Yes, but I'm different from ordinary people'.

Does this sound like Aspergers to you?

Hmm, ds1 does have a lack of imagination certainly (his DX is still HFA /AS thougha s opposed to straight AS), it looks as if he is playing imaginative games sometimes but if you watch closely he's not playing like everyone else- if he's wearing fancy dress, then its ds1 in a cloak; if he's playing games, its only because hes enabled himself to become established as aleder- hecan't 'submit' to the game itself, unless he can control every aspect.

He's fairly good arftwise and seems to ahev imagination there until you relaise the pics are in sequence- parrots for a while; pigs for a while etc.

This thread is really helping to clarify my ideas about DS1 - thanks everyone.

Niecie - I think we have the same child!
"It seems to be a question of training him rather than knowing intuitively what is he should do." That's exactly what I feel about DS.

I'm also positive that executive function problems are at the root of DS1's difficulties (and DS2's, come to that). Although they're at opposite ends of the spectrum they are both masters of the looking away and/or not replying strategy if they don't know how to do or answer something. And DS2 (who at 5 is language-wise approx where DS1 was at 2) is doing EXACTLY what DS1 did when he didn't know the answer to a 'what's that' question. He says 'bucker', whereas DS1 used to say 'rar-rum' . Their version of 'thingamijig' I think!

It's such a good point about an AS dx possibly masking the dyspraxia and making people spend less time on help with motor skills. I think the problem is that some professionals think you're in denial if you push for a dyspraxia dx instead of an AS or ASD one.

Peachy - DS1 draws pics in sequence too.

I will have a look at Morton Gernsbacher's page, thanks Yurt.

I think it can be quite hard to get a diagnosis of dyspraxia, even though it may be appropriate in so many cases. I think a lot of professionals don't even really know what it means. There's the idea that it's just clumsiness and difficulty with motor skills but the worst part is so much the motor planning and mind organisation. We have a room with a big swing hanging opposite the TV and I sit on it with Ds2 and let him watch TV while I surreptiously swing him about which is supposed to help his vestibular integration. He got on it yesterday to watch the TV and ended up at the wrong end with his back to the TV - he then turned slightly with the intention of sitting like that and watching the TV over his left shoulder. I had to physically turn him round. It's like you say - nothing is intuitive - a one year old could have got on to face the right way without thinking about it.

Oh that reminds me of ds1 Saker. I'd say 'lie down' and he'd end up facedown with his bum in the air He couldn't work out how to get onto his back. Obviously ASD is a more appropriate lable for ds1 than dyspraxia, but it does annoy me that then people think in terms of Theory or Mind and sociability, rather than the massive, massive, motor planning issues he has. growing Minds remain the only people who had integrated that into understanding him and has massive problems doing anything at all.

I'm glad I'm not the only one with these problems over the dyspraxia/AS dxs.

I was made to feel like I was in denial for not wanting the emphasis on the AS and more on the dyspraxia. To me the AS is secondary. I feel that if you were to sort out DS's motor skills and the associated behavioural coping strategies that go with it, you would be hard pushed to know he had AS. He makes eye contact, gets jokes, understands and joins in with teasing, has theory of mind and all that sort of stuff. 30 years ago he would have maybe been labelled a loner or slightly eccentric but not now.

My DS is like yours Yurt and doesn't 'get' some instructions which relate to the positioning of his body.

Saker - most people seem to think dyspraxia is falling over and knocking things down, neither of which is really DS's problem so I agree that most people don't seem to understand.

Thanks sphil for starting this thread - was considering starting something similar after DS's OT appointment left me wondering what I am supposed to call him or tell him about his dx but I couldn't get my thoughts sorted enought to come up with a post. This thread has helped and DS has found his long lost twin too.

Interesting;y DS1 is being monitored for dyspraxia by the school at the moment- and dyslexia too. he ahs a real talent when it comes to athletics etc though but poor fine motor skills- will be interested to see where that all comes out.

they seem to be quite hot on Dyspraxia here- ds3's little Nursery friend had a full DX and statement for dyspraxia (including verbal dyspraxia) by 3.5! (and thats for anyone who knows our LEA !!)

'away and/or not replying strategy if they don't know how to do or answer something. '- er I was going to put thats every man I ever lived with, then relaised one has since got a HFA diagnosis and one is my DH so he must have genes there too....