Can I come in? I need a spot of info....

[Greenshoots]

Sorry to harp about this (I had had several threads about it lately) but I wondered whether anyone could tell me what IEPs are used for. Does an IEP always mean a child has SN/learning difficulties?

DS1 is 4, not at school yet - he goes to nursery school 5 mornings a week. His keyworker has drawn up an IEP, in consultation with the Head (of the nursery, it's not attached to a school) and the SENCO, to help my ds with his "social/personal interaction and communication problems". The Head is actually an acting Head, his real job is coordinator of the Early Years/Foundation Curriculum for the county council.

I still feel that they are not putting me and dh in the picture and that we are being fobbed off a bit. I've seen the IEP briefly, but only because I specifically asked to see it, and only in a 2-minute conversation with his teacher while my other son was waiting outside in his buggy. No proper meeting, no explanation of why he is being singled out or what they are really thinking. Twice now his keyworker has mentioned that they "have access to an ed psych" who can be called in if he isn't meeting the targets on the IEP, but I just feel that they are talking to one another and not to me .

Also, if he has an IEP now will he have one when he starts school, or will it affect how he is perceived/treated by his first teacher?

(it's greensleeves btw)

.

I wouldn't be scared by an IEP- lots of kids have them, and I don't think it does any harm. It will be passed ono reception- but info always passes from nursery to reception in the fomr of the Early years Goals (or something like that- its a booklet that marks where your child is at on various tests).

I would be very peed off by the poor communication though, they should be talking to you re your concens and swappping advice/opinions.

IME it is VERY hard to get a school/nursery who are not good at sharing info to start being more open. I would ask for a meeting when you can all talk openly, and just try and persuade them that you want to work in partnership with them. If they call in an ed psych ask to see the ed psych straight after his/her visit (that would be standard practice) to talk through their opinions.

Thanks Gess, but what do kids have them for? His keyworker said "Oh, lots of children have them" but she didn't tell me what it signifies or why he needs one. I've been reading the policy documents for the Early Years team in our area and for this nursery, and it says that an IEP drawn up between the SENCO, the child's teacher and the head (which is what's happened with ds1) means the child has been labelled "Early Years Action" in terms of SN. If they call in an ed psych (which his teacher said they might), that's "Early Years Action Plus" and the area SENCO will have to be involved.

Sorry to badger but it is very confusing and I don't know what they are trying to do or why. He's not violent/badly behaved, he doesn't have academic learning difficulties. It's very confusing.

Greensleeves, don't know if this is of any use but it's worth a look {http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/management/atoz/i/individualeducationplan\IEP} and follow the links

damn

IEP

lots of children do have them that's true, for all sorts of things. do you have any concerns at all yourself? you should of course be told why he has one- but ask for a meeting and get them to go through it. Have they given you any indications at all why he might have one- that's very odd not to! You should have a copy of the actual IEP btw.

You're not badgering- they sound like they are not handling it very well (sound like ds1's first nursery- I moved him to another one- and oh boy the difference in communication).

Thanks Mercy, I saw that earlier today and just felt all the more frustrated, because ds1 doesn't have SN or learning difficulties as far as we have been told

I hope I am not being insensitive by posting this here - it's not that I would be devastated if he did have SN of some kind (I've had my own suspicions in the past), it's just that I feel very "kept in the dark", which isn't something I find easy, but I don't want to antagonise them or make it seem as though I am the one pushing to stick a label on him.

They have always been brilliant with him, especially his teacher - I couldn't praise her highly enough until this recent IEP thing cropped up. She's great with him, always has been. In fact she has given me various really good tips for making life with ds1 easier, such as seeking him out to warn him 5 minutes earlier than the other children if there is going to be a change to the routine. He's been there well over a year - why would he suddenly need an IEP?

The IEP itself talks about his "social, personal and emotional development" and his "communication difficulties". He's very, very verbal and articulate, no communication difficulties in that sense - but they also have said that as part of the IEP thing they are going to film other children interacting and then sit down with ds1 and show him how other children play and how appropriate interaction works. He's not a naughty/violent/disruptive child, although he can be outspoken. there are children there who are much more difficult to manage behaviourally IMO.

When the teacher first told me about the IEP (another off-the-cuff doorway conversation) she started off by saying that "in school there is a thing called the gifted and talented programme". Then she said ds1 needed a thing called an IEP because of his "interaction" problems. I was quite dazed and didn't take it all in properly, but she moved on very quickly to talking about getting an ed psych evaluation, thinking about extra support for his "difficulties", using film to help him learn to interact, and generally (to my very biased and uninformed ears) saying that he is an antisocial child who doesn't make relationships with other children. She also mentioned that she had been consulting about the IEP with one of the other teachers "with her SENCO hat on". I had had no idea that this woman was a SENCO, but had noticed her having more and more to do with ds1 recently, considering she isn't his keyworker. I assume the G&T mention at the start was just to sweeten the pill (which it doesn't!)

I think you are right gess, I should ask for a copy of the IEP and ask for a proper meeting with me and dh as well. I really have harped about this on MN lately, but I am really upset about it. I suppose it is feeding into existing worries which have always niggled me about ds1 - my lovely boy - he is very highly strung and I think he might have a rough ride at school.

But didn't I see you mention on another thread that you are concerned about his social skills?

(sorry if I've got it wrong or over-stepping the mark, I know very little about this area)

Hoepfully someone with more knowledge will be around soon.

ooops, x posts

Without wanting to sound too flippant it sounds as though it's the nursery who are the ones with communication problems.

At pre-school level the parents should be involved in setting the targets and discussing how best to go about achieving them. If an IEP is going to work at nursery them IME parental input is very important. If they don't tell you what they think the problem is then how on earth do they expect you to work with them in resolving any issues?

If the nursery believes that your ds1 needs an IEP then you should also ask them what, if anything, they are planning to do about your ds1's transition to school - particularly as the nursery itself is not attached to the school. You also need to know what kind of timescale these targets have. Are the staff expecting the issues to be resolved by the end of the summer term, for instance? If not then they need to be asking for your permission to speak to the SENCO at ds1's future school to discuss your ds1's needs ready for when he starts.

I would ask to see a copy of the nursery's SN policy. They have to have one and from the sounds of things they are not following it.

Yes, I AM concerned about his social skills - partly because I always have been, a bit (but I hadn't realised it was noticeabl enough for his nursery to think he can't be taught without extra support) and partly because the IEP has come as a bit of a shock and it is all about his social skills!

Mercy, it's so hard to explain without sounding like a twat

I do have concerns about his social skills/eccentricities, I always have had mild concerns. I have posted about them on here quite a few times. But as far as I can see he's doing OK at the moment, in fact he's better socially now than he was a year ago IMO - and I'm not really sure where the nursery are coming from, or whether their concerns are the same ones as mine, IYSWIM. If I push for an explanation, I risk a) involving and ed psych where I don't really want one, b) hanging a label round my son's neck which he may well not need, and c) convincing the nursery once and for all that I am an over-anxious nutter.

If I don't push for an explanation of what's going on, I stay in the dark and worried. It's not that I don't want him to have SN or I'm ashamed that he needs an IEP or anything stupid like that. It's just that up until a week ago I had never heard of a bloody IEP, I don't know who is making thes decisions and why they are not talking to me, and I had frankly got quite used to everyone just poo-pooing my mild concerns about ds1 and decided that he was doing fine and there was nothing to worry about.

I have to go out now, having poured my heart out at great length once again sorry.

You need a meeting greensleeves to sit down and go through everything otherwise you'll end up going round in circles.

Don;t worry about the ed psych- they can't diagnose anyway. Only a clinical psych/paed can diagnose. I would ask to see the video myself tbh then you'll get a better idea of how he is in nursery.

Greenshoots, you are not a twat, don't be daft.

I have had/have slightly similar concerns re dd and ds. They both seem to have inherited my & dh's 'oddball' tendencies. That's the only way I can describe it tbh.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy your evening out!

Forgot to say, Gess' advice sounds v good.

Greeny. I don't know much about this area, but I can clarify those terms you mentioned earlier. 'Early Years Action' just means a child's (special educational) needs are being met by the nursery/pre-school and 'Early Years Action Plus' means that they have support coming in from outside, be it ed psych, SALT, whatever. The terms translate over to school: 'School Action' and 'School Action Plus'.

I wish I was qualified to be tell you not to worry. But I do think the communication on the part of your nursery has been pretty bloody shoddy over this. Hope you get some answers ASAP.

Fancy a cuppa sometime soon?

GS- I've just read elsewhere that you think your son may have AS. If you really think that is possible I'd really advise you to flag that up before school. It's undxed AS that causes massive problems (for the children) at school. With a diagnosis they have a signpost, that even the most unswitched on teacher can have some comprehension of. Without a dx they're just "weird" or "badly behaved" etc etc. It's a way to access (necessary) support, which is essential for a child with AS. Without the support things can fall apart very quickly.

It's always best to act on concerns before they reacg crisis point. Also better for your own mental health. Is he/isn't he is a dreadful time. With answers (whether they're yes or no) you can move on.

There is little (I'd say practically no) danger of an inappropriate diagnosis. If professionals aren't sure they hold of. As an example my friend's son has been involved with professionals from around aged 2 (I suspected AS/spectumy type thing from the first time I met him). He eventually saw a clinical psych aged 4 shortly before starting school, and she decided to observe him regularly, give him some time to see how he got on. He's 6 now, I saw his mum last week and she was saying they've decided now that he doesn't need a diagnosis yet (and seeing him now I'd agree). He does have some problems still, but he's doing well in school, with the correct level of support and assuming things stay the same he's just the right side of a diagnosis. Even if they do diagnose things can move on and that can be lost. I know a boy aged 5 who had been expelled from 2 schools before receiving an AS diagnosis. He spent some time out of school, slowly reintegrated, changed to a different school aged 8 where things began to fly, won an academic scholarship aged 11 to a top school (his choice- his mother wasn't keen on him trying) and now aged 13 has lots of friends, is doing very well, and the diagnosis is 'lost'. I'm not sure his current school even know he ever had one. He needed that extra help in the early years though- and with an earlier dx may not have ended up being expelled from 2 schools in the first year of his schooling.

Long message, but I'd really sit down with the nursery and see what they have to say, and share your concerns. The wheels of extra help etc move very slowly, but the summer term could be spent getting some idea of what sorts of things will make transition to school easier for him, but you and the nursery need to be communicating openly with each other for it to work.

Greenshoots

I think you are being fobbed off by the nursery; there is certainly a lack of open and honest communication between you both. You're both going around in circles and that helps no-one. There should have been a meeting between you and the nursery staff before the IEP had been drawn up; the purpose of the meeting would have been to discuss the content of the IEP. They then should have given same to you. Certainly the way it was done in your case is just plain wrong.

If you do think at heart DS is AS you must address this before he starts school. No point burying head in sand or going into denial (not suggesting you've done this but many people faced with such crises do go into denial mode in the hopes it will go away). I would certainly agree with Gess in this regard; children with AS without proper support (I do not mean school action plus which is to my mind not worth the paper its written on) can struggle very badly in social settings even though many are "academically able". The Ed psych may also recommend a Statement re his educational needs for DS when he is seen. This person cannot diagnose though.

At present your son has no DX; he needs one and you will have to go all out to get same. Has he to date seen a developmental paed?.

Just to expand on my previous post: my ds1 (you know him!) has been struggling recently with maths and they have introduced some additional help for him to help him catch up to where they think he should be. This support is part of School Action, which shows just what a broad heading special needs provision is.

Thanks for all the responses, it's appreciated.

Gess, I just don't know whether I think he has AS or someting similar or whether I am just being daft. I am a worrier and a hypochondriac myself, so I know my judgement isn't great. When I read about AS on the internet etc, I DO think it describes him quite closely in some ways. At other times I think it's a ridiculous idea and of course he doesn't have anything like that. I just don't know. I feel bad about trying to pin a label on him, and I feel bad about feeling bad that he might have some form of SN. And also feel bad because I feel as though I am doing him down, when he is really lovely and adorable and clever. I think the IEP thing is just worrying me a lot, because I had sort of got used to expressing my niggling worries about him and being told "no, you're being silly", and now someone else is flagging up a problem and I wasn't expecting it!!

pageturner, a cuppa soon would be lovely, I am free all of next week!

He can be lovely and adorable and clever and still have SN! Thinking he might have AS isn't doing him down. Luke Jackson's book (Freaks, Geeks and Asperger's Syndrome) has a good bit on the pros of diagnosis etc. It is easy to think that any of the signs of AS could fit if you're looking for it, and it can drive you round in circles wondering.

At this stage I think a proper scheduled meeting with nursery is the best thing to go for, ask to see the videos they do, and also find out what lines they're thinking along. If you have the same concerns it might be worth moving things on sooner rather than later, or you may come out thinking that wait and see is appropriate.

Oh no Gess, I didn't mean children with SN couldn't be lovely and clever and adorable I would hate anyone to think I thought like that. I don't. In fact it's not whether or not he has SN that's bothering me so much as the fact that he's having problems, and he's finding socialising at nursery tough, and I feel sorry for him and want to understand him and help him. If someone could say to me "Yes, he definitely conclusively DOES have XXX, and this is what you need to do for him" I would be happier than I am now.

I know fantastic children with AS.