Quick one- can a child have anxiety / attachment problem cause by traumatic birth?

[Waitingforsleep]

Latest from camhs. Could this happen? Is this what explains Dd behaviour? Or is this camhs?

[Willow505]

zzzzz I'll see if I can find the paper I read it in. I believe it was reputable, but 'buried deep' as there are so may articles about birth trauma causing ASD.

Birth is a complex process, and the interactions between mother and child (chemical and physical) are involved. But I do think it is important to consider links between things from both sides, and there is an awful lot of poor information (bad science) out there relating to cause and effect (generally).

Of course, I may just want to think this, as it 'lets me off the hook' in terms of my DD's problems being caused by me being crap at giving birth!

Waiting I hope things work out for your DD. We did use private psychotherapy eventually, and it was good. Make sure you find someone properly registered. I found psychotherapists who were ex-CAMHS to be very good - they were well trained, but could see the limitations of the CAMHS provision, and tried to address it in their own settings. They also gave good feedback.

[Waitingforsleep]

Any debate is always interesting. Dd was stuck and posterior. I'm not sure who I trust anymore to source any help let alone pay for it too :(
Double :( is how I feel today

[Craftyoldhen]

You know OP I feel the same today.

DD has a diagnosis, but is currently attending a CAMHS course for school related anxiety. Treatment involves CBT style positive thinking, stopping "unhelpful thoughts" etc.

But I'm beginning to think DD's anxiety is entirely rational given her difficulties and current lack of support for them.

And it's making me very upset and angry that she's been told that it's somehow her "faulty thinking" and lack of positivity that is the problem.

Plus the fact that I think DD is pretty much about to be kicked off the course because she is unable to work with me to do the planned activities.

It's all a load of bollocks.

[Craftyoldhen]

I have a whole bookshelf of books polter. DD refuses to read them. She's literally impossible to work with. Im not even slightly exaggerating.

She knows best, and you can't even suggest otherwise. Even the lady from CAMHS can't get her to do the activities properly in the group. All the other kids (with ASD) will do them. She shouts and cries

She refuses to do work in school because she "doesn't do anything to do with Roald Dahl" and even the teachers just give up and let her do what she wants!!

I leave the books in her room, in the hope she may pick them up herself one day.

[Waitingforsleep]

Yes I am back to where I was and back to London referal - just hadn't had this said to me by camhs until this week. Trying to sort out her needs and unpick so I can help finding the right secondary etc.
Crafty- I agree! I'm lucky though in that Dd primary school is fab, but it took a school
Move to get to one like it.
I hate all the patronising rubbish!
I feel I provide good support at home it's the secondary school that's bothering me

[blaeberry]

I am going to go against the grain here and say I think a traumatic birth could cause anxiety or attachment problems but not by any physical impact on the child. I also want to be very careful and step lightly as I don't want to be 'parent blaming' but where a traumatic birth leaves to psychological problems for the mother and her ability to care for the baby then I think there is an impact on the whole parent-child unit. I do think this is only in extreme cases though.

[MrsSam]

Waiting, you have the right to make an informed decision about any and all aspects of your child's care and unless you feel they have explained to you why things are being done, which they do not appear to have done, then I think they owe you more in the way of explanation and information.

I should have been far clearer in my previous post, what I was trying to illustrate was declaring DS's problems are because of birth trauma seems like an easy out. CAMHS were looking for a reason and luckily for them they found one! If all children with anxiety had a traumatic birth and all those without a traumatic birth had no anxiety then fair enough but this is simply not true. I would argue that although there is some evidence to suggest birth trauma can contribute to anxiety issues and neurological problems there is nothing definitive and as such you want other avenues explored. If CAMHS don't want to look any further ask them to justify the decision. I have done this myself and it was very successful, however I am aware different CAMHS can have different attitudes.

I will add, I have seen success with art therapy but I have always seen it used as part of a bigger therapy plan and not in isolation. It may be worth asking if they believe the therapy will inform them in any way? I hope you do have success.

[AllwaysCarryMashems]

I came across one article on radical midwifery that suggested that failure to position & engage could be considered the first missed mile stone, but ONE article, unlike the harvard metaanalysis on the links between birth & asd that concluded that oxygen deprivation or prematurity MAY be the factor that activates the underlying genetic component. Which is considered a possible factor in adhd & dyspraxia also, because if similar researches. One artitle versus metanalysis.

Op is your gp on side? Males a huge diffence ime. Best of luck

[Waitingforsleep]

No idea what the gp thinks but I can chat to him. So then can traumatic birth cause asd / dyspraxia then?

[AllwaysCarryMashems]

It's considered to be a compounding factor in some cases yes, I wouldn't term that 'cause' as such. Genetic's are quite complicared (and my understand is not at all sophisticated) but think of it like I'd someone has a generic susceptibility to depression, but they need another factor to switch on this gene, so maybe something like abuse or bereavement happens and they get depression, but these may not happen and so they don't get depression. (For some of course they will have such a strong genetic component that they get it even with a blessed life, and some people will have no genetic susceptibility but truamatic events set off depression) but think of the genetic component of asd/adhd/dyspraxia (possibley all developmental disorders but I don't know if there's research on others) as working simildly, for many they will need a factor to 'acitvate' the gene, but of course not for all. The research indicates that significantly oxygen deprivation at birth or prematurity can be a risk factor. There are likely othere factors that could switch it on, but birth truama is one that is con firmed (as much as something like this can be) as a possible compounding factor.

[VivienneWestwoodsKnickers]

If you yourself were traumatised by the birth, have you had the right support to deal with the after effects of that? Are you ok?

My depression as a teenager came on after living with depressed parents for years - I basically picked up their moods and behaviours. Could her anxiety in any way be influenced by any anxieties of yours and your DH following her birth?

I'm certainly not laying blame here - you would be in no way to blame for anything like that. It's just a theory to put back to the medical people.

[lougle]

I don't know much about this (I used to post here lots and have a DD with a structural brain malformation plus two others, one of whom I think has ASD) but I would say you're in the same position I was in when DD2 was 6. She's now 9.

You know there is something. They know there is something. But you don't agree on a) what that something is and (possibly) b) the extent/seriousness/longevity of that something. The way I see it, you have two choices:

A: It's ASD and you know it's ASD. ASD isn't going away - ever. So it doesn't matter if they spend a bit of time thinking it's trauma and doing art therapy with your DD, because 1. It may help a bit but the ASD will still be there and then they'll have to deal with it or 2. It won't help at all and the ASD will still be there and then they'll have to deal with it. You're playing the long game.

B: It's ASD and you know it's ASD and they're going to flaming well get on and admit it.

A will involve thanking them for their considered view, consenting to art therapy, with the caveat that you still have concerns re. the ASD presentation.

B will involve asking for another opinion, etc.

I went with the A approach because DD2 was so anxious that nurture groups couldn't harm her and professionals just weren't prepared to look at her with an ASD hat on, I didn't have the money to go private and I was too battered to get arsey. Now that she's 9 and in year 5, I'm being encouraged to seek assessment and school are willing to back me with professionals because none of her difficulties have gone anywhere and they just stick out more.

[lougle]

zzzzz Retts is a 'gene switching' condition, isn't it? I think the research aim for that condition is to see if they can switch on the MECP2 gene that has been mutated or essentially switched off. If they can do that, then the rest of the functional defecits wouldn't happen.

But I think ASD is a bit more nuanced. Something like Retts has such a defined path and although severity may differ, the characteristics are really very similar. Although children with ASD all meet the same broad diagnostic criteria, there are so many environmental and social factors that influence social development anyway, that you may has well say 'I have skin' as 'I have ASD' - what works for one child will be totally wrong for another.

[Ineedmorepatience]

What a brilliant discussion!

I have 3 Dd's the first and last were incredibly muddled at delivery, both are lefties and both have Asd (only one dx'ed)!

Do I think their deliveries caused their Asd? Nope not for one minute but I have often wondered if their "differentness" contributed to their muddled presentations!

My control is my middle Dd who is as NT as they come is right handed and was a doddle to deliver (she was 9lb too so not due to size).

Its all fascinating, I wish I could help more waiting keep going. 💐💐