Can ASD kids be successfully integrated into mainstream school?

[QueenEagle]

dh is convinced ds3 will struggle in mainstream education. I think with the right help in place he will be ok. Am I being naive?

He is 4 and currently at playgroup where he receives 4 hours per week of one-to-one with his keyworker.

He has poor toileting and self-help skills. How do schools deal with this?
He gets angry when things are not just how he likes them and can lash out unexpectedly.
He "closes down" if he doesn't want to listen or see something he doesn't like - ie he will curl up, covering his eyes and ears or hide away.
He has poor speech and refuses to speak in most situations (although this is improving slightly of late).

There is more but these are the main things he struggles with at home and playgroup. Am I burying my head in the sand about him staying in mainstream?

.

Have you looked into an asd unit? My dd is in a language unit and had thrived there.
Basically they get ms and unit time. SO best of both worlds.
If you do decide to go for ms I would suggest getting your ds statemented for extra help.

The SALT will be recommending a statement but the CDC keep saying how difficult it is to get one so I am not certain he will get one tbh.

The lower school he is due to start at just happens to be the Language Provision school too so he is in the right place from that aspect at least.

I heard a story from a colleague of dh's that he went to his ds's parents' evening and none of his books had any work in them whatsoever. I don't want ds3 to slip through the net like this.

I think he will struggle with the social aspect of life at school and withdraw into himslef if things aren't going as he likes them to.

How long would he be in ms before anyone started to realise it wasn't working out?

Based on our experience with DS i would have to say no.

But other kids do get through mainstream ok with support.

HTH

How bad to they have to be to be considered for a special school?

I am really worrying as ds3 starts in April - not far off.

Sometimes, in my experience. It depends on the degree of ASD, and exactly how it affects the child. And also it depends on the degree of support. I have seen children flourish in MS, but only when they hade enough support for their needs (and in one case that was 32.5 hours a week) Those who don't have enough support......

All the professionals are making all the right noises as far as ds3 is concerned but how long would they leave him to struggle? He may well be ok but it is a worry for us.

In my experience children seldom get the help they need unless their parents are prepared to battle for them. This makes me both and . I would follow your gut feeling totaly. If you feel he is having problems, I'd bet my boots that you awould be right

You might find a mainstream school with an ASD resource like the one I work in, but they are very rare. The main things it provides, apart from the trained staff are a 'safe haven' to which the children can turn if things get overwhelming and a 'framework' which helps children to manage the changes in routine and unexpected events which are inevitable in a mainstream school - for example, they go to the resource at the beginning & end of the day & have their own starting & ending routines so they avoid these times in the class, which can be amongst the most stressful.
A good TA may be able to help a child get through a day in a mainstream class, but they will have to be able to recognise the signs that the child is getting stressed, as well as the likely triggers.

"A good TA may be able to help a child get through a day in a mainstream class, but they will have to be able to recognise the signs that the child is getting stressed, as well as the likely triggers"

good point rusty bear, weve had asd children at our secondary school and with the right support they get along fine

however

as MB has pointed out, no support then its makes for a very bad experience/isolation in school. definitely need a statement in place

always get a statement kinda like an insurance policy ,if it doesn't work in MS at least you know you can get him a place in SN without having to wait for a statement

Ms has worked well for one of my three, didn't work for my two girls.
so much depends on....
the school
the head
the teacher
number of hours support
type of support
who his TA is

As OJ says, it can depend on so many things.

Ds1 (now 6) is doing well in a m/s school. He had 1:1 help in Reception. His LSA was there to help keep him focussed, to calm him down when it all got too much, and to give general support. He gradually needed her less and less and is in Yr2 with no 1:1. It's working well for now but I can see that he will eventually need a statement.

Wrt toileting, ds1 was in nappies right up until a few weeks before he started school. His teacher had said during transition meetings that there would be someone available to change his nappies. They had extra staff in the room anyway as it was such a big class so it's worth asking what provision is available for your ds3.
Ds1 had/has poor self-help skills due to fine motor difficulties but again there was someone to help him.

Have you seen an Ed Psych yet about ds3 going to school? I have a meeting with the EP in a few weeks to talk about similar issues with ds2, who starts school in September.

As OJ says, it can depend on so many things.

Ds1 (now 6) is doing well in a m/s school. He had 1:1 help in Reception. His LSA was there to help keep him focussed, to calm him down when it all got too much, and to give general support. He gradually needed her less and less and is in Yr2 with no 1:1. It's working well for now but I can see that he will eventually need a statement.

Wrt toileting, ds1 was in nappies right up until a few weeks before he started school. His teacher had said during transition meetings that there would be someone available to change his nappies. They had extra staff in the room anyway as it was such a big class so it's worth asking what provision is available for your ds3.
Ds1 had/has poor self-help skills due to fine motor difficulties but again there was someone to help him.

Have you seen an Ed Psych yet about ds3 going to school? I have a meeting with the EP in a few weeks to talk about similar issues with ds2, who starts school in September.

"The SALT will be recommending a statement but the CDC keep saying how difficult it is to get one so I am not certain he will get one tbh"

QE

Don't be put off by how potentially difficult it is - such a tactic is designed to put people off applying in the first place. These people are the very ones whose children need such support.

If you want the right help for your son you will have to fight to get it because it certainly won't be readily forthcoming.

IPSEA are very good in this regard and there are model letters on that site you can use.

There is actually no reason why you as the parents cannot apply now for a statement, you don't have to wait for the SALT to pull her finger out at some indeterminate stage. Infact you stand a better chance applying for it, parents have the right of appeal if the LEA say no. Also if you apply for it you know its been done then.

Would suggest you start the ball rolling now; certainly don't leave it until he starts reception.

A statement as well, if it is granted, can take up to six months to be issued. If you were to look at a special school place for your son then you will in all likelihood need a statement to access this.

As the other posters have rightly pointed out a successful inclusion can depend on so many factors not least the attitude of the school.

You as the parent are your child's best - and only - advocate.

IPSEA's website is www.ipsea.org.uk.

If you went for a special school they may be able to facilitate time in M/s as well (usually supported from the Sn school) or possibly split placement?

What do you hope him to get out of m/s?

I think you need to get the statement ball rolling yourself. - request a statutory assessement from your LEA education dept. If you are in any doubt about your dc's ability to cope in ms, then you don't want to wait for 6-12m for a statement process, whilst he flounders. My dd is ASD and when she starts school in Sept will be supported in ms by outreach workers from the specialised autistic unit and language unit, with half a day placement in each unit each week, and 1:1 support for 20 hours a week.

Check out all your schools locally. So much varies from area to area. Here there is very good provision for severe ASD, extremely poor provision for HFA. Other areas will be the complete opposite. Whether to go for m/s or special will depend on your local situation.

I do think is is very difficult for m/s schools to cope successfully with ASD, and even harder for them to teach the child with autism the things they need to know. But will depend on the individual child.

DS1 spent 4 terms in m/s and learned nothing (except a bunch of bad behaviours). My friends very high functioning (AS) dd has just had to leave a m/s school- but in the same school my another friend's far more severely autistic dd is currently flourishing. In their case the difference came down to one having a very good LSA, and one having a crap one. If you met the 2 girls independently and had to guess who would thrive in mainstream and who would sink you would probably have guessed the other way round.

i think the thing for me is that when my girls go off on their school bus i don't worry about them all day, i know that they have another 7 years at their school.
when DS goes off to school i worry about so many things, i never really relax about him being at mainstream, cos althou things are going well at the moment that can change due to teacher being off sick, bullying, his girlfriend being off sick, i know that when he moves to his sisters school i can relax. we keep him at MS because he has learnt so much from the other kids, the social opportunities he has at the moment are fab, he goes for tea every week to his girlfriends, and he really enjoys himself. last year there were 18 kids in his class all the kids had to name just one child they wanted to be with when they moved up to a mixed class, the teacher told me that 7 kids had asked to be with DS, that in itself is fantastic.

i would also add don't just check out local schools checkout other schools too, ds doesn't go to a local school.

Depends on so many things.
Before working as a salt in the field of learning disabilities i was passionately for mainstream schools for everyone.
Now I'm not.

The most worrying issue is how little training teachers and assistants in m/s and special schools get.

My advice to you would be to ignore all the smooth talk about 'centres of excellence' 'specialised teaching' 'specialist attention' and so on.
Ask them exactly what that means in terms of concrete qualifications above and beyond standard teacher training.

Be courtous,cooperative,write absolutley everything down,correspond by letter not phone (so you have copies) and above all never trust anyone totally.
Even SALTS.

The Ed Psych is (at long last!) seeing ds3 on Weds - observing him at playgroup for an hour then coming to talk to us before he comes home. tbh I think this observation is a waste of time - the CDC have observed him before and it just does not give a true picture of him in that one hour. The obs which p/g carry out on a day to day basis give a much clearer picture - can I request these be taken into consideration?

I am going to phone the SALT this week, the one who recommended he has a statement for his language needs. It's half term next week so things need to start moving asap.

QE

You need the Ed Pysch on side - this person's opinion is important re statementing because the LEA will approach this person as well when reports are written up. This person can make a recommendation to assess re statementing. You have to date the SALT on side; this person will also be asked to provide a report if the LEA say yes to statementing. The more evidence you provide the better but to start with all you need to do is write to the LEA asking for DS to be assessed.

Why not phone the SALT today; for what its worth you'll be far better off applying for a statement yourselves as the parents rather than letting the SALT do it for the reasons I've already mentioned.

@ moondog

I really identify whith OJ. When ds1 went off to maiinstream I worried every day (actually his MS school wasn't local either, it was actually in a different LEA by local I meant check out all the specialist provision available locally). I spent my whole time trying to patch up the cracks, hence I spent half my time producing supporting materials for them to use (now at special- they send me materials), I sppent half my time trying to tell them how to work with him (I'm PECS trained no-one in the school was- but still me making suggestions went down like a lead balloon- in the end I had to ring the SALT, tell her what was happening- she'd say "Oh dear"then she'd have to use her precious time to ring the school and tell them what I could have told them in 5 minutes that morning if they weren't so threatened by it).

If you go for MS make sure they really do want a partnership with you- it is impossible to make progress without that. At ds1's special school there is a true partnership between parents and staff- for example ds1's teacher's dd spotted me and ds1 in our car and they were waving like mad. When I saw his teacher she said "oh yes my dd spotted him- our kids really do grow up with your kids you know" which I thught kind of summed up the partnership that exists. At MS any input by us (attempted) was treated as a threat. We had a good LSA in MS for a while (mother od a child with AS) and she used to walk me to the car and go through the day with me. She was asked not to (by the SENCO). She ignored them, but told me that her talking to me made the school very nervous. How bloody ridiculous, and how obviously doomed the whole thing was. Ask mainstream schools how they intend to work with you.