Advice needed. Is he naughty or is it something else? ...Very long, sorry!

[Flip]

I've been concerned about ds1 (5) for a while. It's like having a teenager in the house. He tells me he hates me several times a day. He won't get out of bed, he wont' do as he's told, he won't go to school. The list is endless.

I got called into school Thursday afternoon to discuss him because he'd been so upset. He's in reception class and the teacher told me that he was so upset when he got to school and just sat in the toilets and cried. She told me that he said that nobody loved him and he didn't love anyone. There had been an incident Wednesday afternoon after school where the classroom assistant had told him off for attacking another child. I'd backed her up and told him that it wasn't acceptable and I was very disappointed with his behaviour. Well this incident sparked off a landslide.

So after a long chat with his teacher we decided that we wouldn't discuss his behaviour in front of him and that I should phone her if I needed to tell her anything and she'd phone me if she needed to tell me anything.

Friday morning he wouldn't go to school. Normally my dad takes him because he works there but he was refusing to go so I said I'd take him. I ended up dragging him kicking and screaming through the main entrance. I asked for the head master and he was in a meeting. I asked for the deputy head and she was already in class. What had sparked this off was that I'd told him that his teacher wasn't in that morning and he'd have a supply teacher. It sent him into a rage and I knew it wasn't fair on the supply teacher to have him disrupting the class.

The secretary took us through to the classroom and because it's a double intake school the teacher from the other reception class took him. They had to lock the doors to stop him running out and I gave my permission for them to man handle him should they need to so he didn't hurt himself. He told me that he was going to run in the road if I made him get out of the car at school so I had to park in the school carpark.

I was so upset when I left that I went straight to our GP's and demanded to see someone. The doctor was very sympathetic and agreed to referred him to a child phycologist again. I got back to my mums to pick up ds2 and the head master called and wanted to see me. I went to school and he was so worried about ds1's behaviour. He's attacked a couple of children and had to be pulled off because he doesn't stop. His language his very adult and he's so intelligent. The head master thinks that he may have a mild form of autism and he wants to put him on the special needs register and get an educational phycologist in to assess his school needs. I'm a little worked up and I'm not sure where I need to go from here and what I need to do. I know mumsnet is the place to be so anyone who's had a 'naughty' child that has been diagnosed with a condition, please help.

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Flip how awful and upsetting, I'm afraid I know nothing about this but wanted to offer you my sympathy. Hope you get it sorted out soon.

Flip, there are other Mums better placed to help you here on MN with more experience, however I have been where you are now.

Eventually, after many such days as you are currently having, my ds (now 6.5) was diagnosed first with ADHD and then a bit later with Asperger's Syndrome (high functioning end of Autism). It was both a relief and a terrible shock to eventually have a name for it, but helps now in my understanding of him.

Firstly he was diagnosed by the "experts" as having severe behavioural problems as he was too young to diagnose with ADHD, but now looking back it was soooo obvious. My ds still has days like your ds who threatens to do things like kill himself, run away, get run over, that he is worth nothing etc. I am left heartbroken when I hear this, it is like someone has stolen his self esteem suddenly and he falls into a pit of depression, then the self harming starts. He is currently under a psychologist and about to have his second play therapy session.

His tantrums (latest one last Thurs) leave me bruised and heatbutted and covered in spit, but I know this is not his usual self, who is excessively loving and caring. He was mortified when he saw the bite marks on my arm just recently.

Like your ds, it is very hard for my ds to take critisism and that sometimes triggers a tantrum, self harming or the crying bouts.

Relax in the knowledge that you have done the right thing by getting him assessed. They will find out if there is a need there and be able to deal with it.

Lastly, try not to get too upset (believe me, I know this is easier said than done), as you need to be calm for yourself and him.

The best of luck and keep posting. xx

Flip....sounds so familiar to me-i have 3 boys and have seen all kinds of behaviours between them.
tom is 10 and was diagnosed with ADHD at 7 then asperger's at 9.....he has been taking Concerta (like Ritalin) since the ADHD diagnosis. this i believe truly helped him 'learn' to cope with the difficulties he had.

leigh is 7 and i have been sure he has SN for 2 years- but it took changing schools last week for anyone to really agree- sounds like your school is handling this well-that is keeping you informed and referring to the 'experts' for advise and opinion.

i know how awful it feels to be 'hounded' day in and day out by the school about the child's behaviour- i used to dread collecting thomas as there had always been an incident. I felt isolated by the other mums. But really it is best to know- as with leigh the teacher decided not to tell me things that had happened- and that was far worse.

now Alex is reminding me so much of thomas at 4 yrs old that i am starting to wonder whether he is just finding the new school strange or has he got AS too.

Basically...if i were you....i'd read loads on ADHD and Aspergers and see if there are things which you noticed BEFORE thursday...as if it's something like AS etc there will be 'signs' way back....things you may have just accepted and never questioned.....but when you see them listed on a checklist you start to add them up. leigh he is greater affected by 'overload' (the build up of anxiety due to his difficulties coping ) and then 'Meltdown' (the 'explosion' after the overload)....so thinking about thursday as an example...'IF' your son has Asperger's or similar then theat would explain how badly he 'behaved' though with Leigh i see it more as a 'reaction' than a behaviour.....behaviour seems to conjour up an image of 'the child choosing to misbehave' and with autism this is far from the case- leigh cannot be reasoned with at the peak of a meltdown- i use things like 'anger management'(aknowleging he is upset/angry--and then only when he has calmed down do i start to talk about what 'overlaoded' him....it is exhausting...and often half an hour later he is fine- but i am not!

i'm waffling here--- i am always concios that its easy for me to say 'yep! sounds like aspergers/adhd' and i don't want to do that....but basically it all comes down to one thing and that is
EVERY CHILD DOES SOME OF THESE THINGS SOME OF THE TIME.....
BUT A 'SPECIAL NEEDS' CHILD CAN DO ALL OF THESES THINGS ALL OF THE TIME!

i say this because us mums of autistic kids are always being told by 'friends' that their child is 'just as bad'...but they have no idea of the difference. they are only trying to help...we know!
Now i start to feel that what makes them think that they are 'right' and i am 'wrong'??

The good that comes out of choosing to find out about these 'disorders' rather than 'wait and see' is that you can 'experiment' with strategies that help the 'diagnosed' kids- and then if they work it could mean you can reduce some of the stress you are all feeling.

p.s thomas (10) spat in my face saturday- and for the first time in at least a year i 'lost it' and smacked him...i mention this to illustrate that even with 'coping strategies' in place it can still be too much- but also that before i read up on AS i hate to say there was alot of smacking (usually from sheer frustration) ...and though an onlooker will often be thinking 'that kid needs a good hiding'...i have now learnt that there are better ways to deal with it all. That is why i felt so cross with myself.....

Hi Flip. My ds1 is a little younger than yours (nearly 4 yrs old) and has high-functioning autism.

It sounds as though your ds finds change hard to cope with, eg a different teacher, someone else driving him to school etc. Even if he isn't autistic it might be a good idea to try to warn him in advance if there are going to be changes to his normal routine, or even use visual timetables so that he can see what will happen on a particular day. There will always be times when plans have to be changed at the last minute but the more warning your ds has, the easier it will be for him.

Do you know exactly what happened just BEFORE your ds attacked the other children? This could be useful to know as it may tell you what 'triggers' the behaviour. My ds1, for example, doesn't like people to get too close to him as he needs a bit of personal space. If children get too close he will shout or push them away. In the same way if he thinks someone is doing something in the 'wrong' way or they are breaking a rule.

Even if your ds turns out not to be autistic you may find that the same methods of managing behaviour will be useful.

Thank you for all your support.

He had his swimming lesson this evening and it was all I could do not to break down. It's so frustrating. He can swim really well but won't because they've changed pools. He was in the small pool and since he's gone in the big pool he just won't get in. I've even thrown him in myself and he just swims to the side and get's out. He screams at the instructor and hits him and kicks him. The instructor is really calm with him and tries to reason but there just isn't any chance. I've had to chase him around the pool several times to get a hold of him. Tonight I ended up sitting at the side of the pool where parents aren't allowed just so I could grab him if he ran off. He isn't afraid of the water and will dive to the bottom and pick things up. He can swim really well so that's what's annoying. When I asked him if he wanted to go into a different class where they were still in the small pool with the same instructor he said he did and he'd swim. He doesn't like change of any kind.

I really feel like crying and I'm sat here with a pint of beer wondering how many I'll get through tonight. Dh and I are both at our wits end and dh is struggling to cope at all. I'm even making dh an appointment at the doctors because he's depressed and having heart problems which I think are anxiety. I'm just glad I'm on anti-depressants for post natal depression or else I really don't think I could cope. The baby is so good which is a relief, it's just ds1 which leaves me exhausted every night. He hates me and he hates my family. He even hates my cooking. Half the things he says don't even make sense logically. He's just trying to hurt me over and over. He even said tonight that he was going to hurt ds2 and make him cry. That's because his cousin hurt ds2 earlier and he knew I was angry. He knows it will upset me if he hurts the baby so he wants to upset me.

Sorry, I'm rambling now. I'd better stop.

Wow, Chocol8 and MrsF's posts are so interesting, I've learnt a lot from reading just those about an area of ASD I know little about.
Flip, I feel so badly for you, enjoy your beer and read those 2 posts again in the morning! Your DS doesn't hate you, he just doesn't know how to express what he feels and what he feels sounds quite a lot for anyone to handle, never mind a little boy. Take all the advice and help you can get.

flip- i have been on antidepressants for 8 years now- started off as PND too....but for me i believe i also have Asperger's...though the doctors don't agree!!!!
Basically.... i had a difficult childhood and always felt i was 'on my own'
I have learnt to be sociable (as adults with AS do eventually)....and it was only through learning about ASD that i began to understand my life.

Whether i have a diagnosis doesn't matter as i see a psychologist every week and i am recieving DLA (disabled Living Allowance) which is not just 'money' to me- it is an official acceptance that i find it hard to do what others do naturally.

Now my point here....is that I beliueve that i AM LUCKY! I do have days when i am so down i cannot see forward (mumsnet is my salvation on those days)- but i also have the 'gifts' that asperger's brings....here goes the 'blow your own trumpet' stuff

Determination to succeed
Persistance and Drive

this has lead me to get through all the terrible days and move forwards- and i am glad i have managed as i can now help my sons in a way that my parents couldn't. I blamed my parents for years about how they treated me- but now i realise that they had no idea how to parent me

Flip- YOU have took the first steps in helping your son- he does not hate you - he is frustrated and a 'downside' of aspergers etc is that though they can speek so fluently ...as you said like an adult...we forget they are not 'socialy as able' so in my case Tom can go from describing the latest computer advancement to insulting me ...allin the same breath- and has no idea why i am upset.

I hope all my thoughts make sense.....There are so many wonderful people who post on this site- stick with us and we will get you through the bad stuff- and don't forget to share the good times too...they will happen and we love to share those times.

Hi Flip
Like Maryz, all this sounds very familiar to me too. Our ds1 was diagnosed with Aspergers about a year ago, and life has looked up dramatically since then. I agree it's a good idea to spend some time reading around it all, and go ahead with as many assessments as you get offered. If you get a diagnosis it will take a while to get used to, but if it means your son gets help from people he really believes are 'on his side', including you, then you should all end up feeling a lot happier. If you don't end up with a diagnosis, you will still learn a lot of useful stuff from reading about some of the management strategies in, say, Tony attwood's book.
Good luck, and keep us posted!

Flip, I am little late reading your thread on this but thought I had to post. What you are saying sounds familar. I too have had slight autism said to me by the school- gp went mad as thought they were not in a postion to make that diagnosis. I thought asphergers and so did the school. DS has had the assessments now more than one and made sure I got different opinions.
It all started with ds in reception ds is now in yr1- which is a long time to wait for the assessments I can tell you. Anyway turns out that ds showed behaviours similar to asphergers but he has not got that, infact he is very intelligent and just doesn't like to school and has tried all the tricks in the book to get out of school- like bad behaviour to be sent home,etc.
I do know how you feel and did exactly the same thing with my ds by taking him straight to gp and know what a strain it all can be. Go for the assessments and keep an open mind- things may not be as bad as they seem.
I really hope this helps you. BTW senco works with my ds usually they have to keep him interested in school by allowing ds time out to do creative stuff, etc. But he only gets this by good behaviour and we have had an improvement at school. larsxx