Sally test question

[kizzie]

Hello - I have 5 yr old twin boys who have always been a 'hand full' but I have become increasingly concerned about their behaviour.
Im not sure if its just having two very 'boyish' boys together at exactly the same stage or whether there is something more to it. Am going to post more about it on behaviour thread as finding it all very difficult at the moment.

Anyway out of interest I decided to do the Sally test. DS twin 1 got it straight away - before Id even asked the question really. His behaviour is very challenging at the moment just because he has got very very cheeky and demanding since starting school, (but I do think that if I left £50 on the dresser I could go away for the weekend and he would be more than capable of looking after himself!!)

However my other son kept giving the wrong answer. When I asked him why he'd given that answer he said 'because i told her where it is now'. He then wanted to do the 'ball game' again the next day. The first time he seemed to get it but when he asked to do it again (we used actual toys and he took them out of the room) he gave the wrong answer again but said that she had heard us moving the ball so knew it wasnt under the same place anymore.
Is this something I really need to be concerned about?

DS has lots of tantrums - extreme for a 5 year old and can be very difficult. Because he is quite big for his age he sometimes seems out of control and the tantrums are more what you would expect from a 3/young 4 yr old. Doesn't show much affection to me - hates kisses. but then will lie on my lap every night to have his back stroked and is very very affectionate with daddy.
At the same time he is advanced with his reading/ will play with jigsaws/lego for ages/ loves football.

I hate to use the 'N' word but maybe he is just naughty.

Id really appreciate any thoughts.

Thanks Kizziex

Kizzie - Have you thought of having a chat with your hv,gp or even school. I think that if you are worried it is always best to get these things checked out. It may just be a behaviour thing or even nothing to worry about!
I have a dd aged 5 in August who has a speech and language disorder and to be honest doubt it would be fair to check out the Sally Ann yet. I am not sure if she has the understanding yet, although I may try out after she is 5. Why did you try out the sally ann, was you testing your ds's understanding? I have twin boy nephems who are 6 and they are a bit of a handful so maybe it is just a "twin" thing. Hope that helps

Kizzy - I'm a twin and when we were little my sis and I were sooo different. She was the funny cheeky little one with bags of confidence and I was quite studious and (dare I say it) surly. I think there's always a dominant one. My sis was always (and still is) very affectionate but I didn't feel comfortable with people in my space or in fact going into someone else's space.

Also what is the Sally test?

SG - The Sally test is a test to show whether or not a child has theory of mind, ie whether they realise that not everyone knows what they THEY know. It's something like:

Sally sees a ball being put under cup no.1 and then leaves the room. Anne moves the ball and puts it under cup no.2. Sally comes back. Where will she look?

Normally we would know that as Sally is out of the room when the switch took place she would look under no.1. A child with no theory of mind would assume that Sally knows what THEY know and so say that she will look under no.2.

HTH

Hi - i decided to do the test after reading about it here mainly because I'm finding my 2xDS behaviour very 'challenging' () at the moment and was concerned that I am treating it as bad behaviour when in fact there might actually be a problem.
Id be really interested to hear any other views on the outcome of Sally Anne test.

Thanks for your replies!
Kizziex

Just out of interest coppertop is it only autistic children that do not have a theory of mind or can this happen with other sn kids? Thanks KPB

I've been thinking about this since I saw your message yesterday - I suspect that when done by parents that test is only useful when it gives a positive result - ie, it is unlikely there's a problem with a child who passes. But the reverse isn't true - thus failure isn't necessarily a marker.

I think I remember from the research that only about 80% of the control group of "normal" children passed - so that means a fifth won't.

From my own experience (5-yr-old ds who's unusual little chap but not, we've been quite convincingly told after having him evaluated, ASD - despite the fact that he failed SallyAnne) and reading, it really does seem to me as if there are more distinctive markers for ASD than lack of "theory of mind" on its own: such as: routines and rituals; obsessive interests (and/or fears - significantly often combined - ie fixated on and terrified by the very same things); and intense problems with transition.

What I'm trying to say is that how your son behaves in general (and what shape your difficulties with him have), are more important than a SallyAnne result. If you haven't seen it already, childbrain.com has a checklist that is quite useful for the kind of things to look for.

I agree with Binkie. The Sally-Anne test alone isn't an indicator of a problem as far as I know. The general behaviour is far more important.

If you were considering autism as a possibility you would be looking at things like:

Communication: Not necessarily speech but does the child understand gestures (eg pointing) or facial expressions? If you pointed at something, where would they look? Ds1 is nearly 4 and still tends to look at the hand or finger rather than the object I'm pointing at.

Social interaction: How does a child get on with other people around them?

Imaginative play: Do they play pretending games and develop them further? Or do they just repeat the same thing over and over?

KPB - I think the test is more of an indicator than anything else. Failing it wouldn't necessarily mean autism. I'm not sure about other SN.

5 is on the borderline for developing TOM anyway.

Children with DS etc usually pass at the correct age. Some researchers are very into TOM (it's quite hip at the moment). Others less so.

What happens, if in my dd's case that due to her language difficulties it is hard to actually explain the situation mind about answer it?

Thanks so much for these replies - really useful!
Kizziex

KPB, since no-one more knowledgeable has answered your question, I would think that there must be other ways of telling whether a child knows that other people don't know all the same things that he/she knows - so, does your dd enjoy planning "surprises" for people, or the suspense of you opening a present that she's wrapped with someone else?

As an example, we think ds (failed SA, as you probably know) must have some kind of (typically off-the-wall) idea because at 4 he asked "Do geese know we're people?" But I really don't know whether that's the sort of thing the research was trying to get at - hence my feeling that "everything else" about a child matters more.

when i tried this on alex (5 in may) he failed....and i caught him lining up cereal up the stairs....and he appears to be literal (but at 4 metaphors are hard for any child!).....however i still feel he must be 'ok' as he 'notices' the world and it's occupants....and if i'm sad he asks why and he 'talks with me' not 'AT me'.

Still as i've said before- 3 autistic children would be no different to the same 3 'undiagnosed'....except for media interest!!!!!;o

interestingly thomas and leigh are both said to have 'theory of mind' when tested....however in 'real lfe' i dispute this- leigh for example has continued talking about playstaion whilst i am crying. alex would say 'what's wrong'. I was choking today and alex asked if i was ok....that's the difference.
Also if i burn food alex smells it- the other 2 will walk straight past...alex also says dinner smells nice. He also 'tries to please' whereas the other 2 don't have any concern for approval- leigh however can be 'paid' which does motivate him- he likes counting money!!!!!

Hi Mrs Forgetful - how old are Thomas and Leigh?
Kizziex

thomas is 10 and leigh is 7. Thomas has Aspergers and ADHD and leigh is as yet to be diagnosed- but i am in no doubt he has Aspergers too!

leigh was a a distressed baby - but was a passive toddler - as thomas was so hard to occupy i was grateful that leigh would sit for hours putting things in a tin and taking them out - or watching over and over the same Pingu video- he started school and called out alot and wanted to control what everyone did- but as he was bright the teacher managed to get him interested in 'work' and he loved maths.
He was 'ok' till he approached 6 years old- I have noticed a significant change in him over the past 18 months-sooooooooooooo............

with thomas - i felt from daye one that 'there was something wrong' ..... but with leigh it took quite a while for the 'aperger'c' behaviours to become noticable-this shows how differently it can effect children.

what i would do kizzy is keep reading on the SN threads- you will be bound to read something that sounds identical to your son- as he gets older and has to interact more with others you will have many 'real life sally ann tests' which will start to build the picture.

for me leigh's worst struggles are

his need to make sure no one breaks rules (he also gets upset if someone forgets to do something- he hates broken promises)

he is a very 'exact' thinker- and very 'black and white'- so if you say 6 minutes he will time you to the second- i have learnt to say 'in a moment' or 'in a while' instead of 'in a minute'!!!!

he is possessive about certain toys- he can appear to share with a friend -but will always manipulate it so they have what he wants them to have.

he has a very limited diet- and seems scared to try new foods- he has to touch and smell/lick food before trying it.

he hates loud noises- and not keen on music

he walks up and down the room or round in circles when talking to people.

he has intense eye contact-hardly blinks- and people find this offputting- especially if at his height when he will have his face less than 6 inches from yours.

he uses a very false 'manic' inappropriate laugh...literally "Ha-Ha-Ha ...ha-ha-ha"

and more recently been aware of his 'taking things literally'- he will analyse phrases- and is very exact about pronounciation....he hates it when people call a male cow a BALL instead of a BULL.

hope something there is of use!

Thanks for all that info Mrs forgetful - really, really useful.

Im at that stage where i just don't know if there's something wrong and as a result seem to be questioning everything - and have definately fallen into the trap of over analysing everything.

I feel very guilty that i can't say for certain that soemthing is wrong because I feel that my 'maternal instinct' should tell me - but I really am not sure.

I also feel very guilty for even questioning his behaviour to this extent. Sorry i know this all sounds a bit confused but I guess you've all been through these uncertain stages too.

Some of things Ive been reading on the SN threads are ringing bells but then in other ways he seems like a perfectly 'normal' (sorry - I know horrible word) little boy.

I think Im going to just keep an eye on things and (unless any issues come up beforehand) wait until parents evening to see what his teacher has to say.

Thanks again for the advice.
Kizziex

Just meant to add that I've been reading loads to try and get to the bottom of this. fell a bit obessesed by it all - almost by reading it and Im going to make it happen. Does this make sense with anyone - did you also find yourself reading everything available to either dismiss or confirm your worries?
Kizziex

Yes completely.

The kicker is the mixed message of "if there is a problem it isn't your fault BUT the earlier you catch it the better" ... so that if help turns out to be needed every moment of "wait & see" damn well was your fault.

kizzie - I'd thought that ds1 seemed somehow 'different' to other children from when he was quite young. It was only when I started looking for explanations as to why he wasn't even trying to talk that I came across autism for the first time. Lots of things seemed familiar, eg he would quite happily walk through the snow with bare feet and legs, and other things just didn't fit at all. Dh told me I was obsessed with it all. It got to the point where I would quickly switch to a different website so that dh didn't walk into the room and catch me looking at an autism site. I also used to hide my library books or only show him the ones that weren't about autism. I think I was still analysing everything ds1 did right up until we got the official diagnosis. Now of course I've started watching ds2's every move. He's nothing like his brother at all but I still keep analysing everything.

Thankyou! -making me feel a bit less neurotic although must admit that still questioning everything.

Eg my mum was taken into hospital yesterday. Shes quite poorly but its fairly routine. She lives a couple of hundred miles away but the boys see her very regularly. When I told them she had gone into hospital they wanted to know why, and where is the hospital etc etc but they werent 'upset' or 'worried'. A few weeks ago this prob wouldnt have concerned me but now im concerned about the lack of empathy.

Or maybe lots of children are like that and its not an issue.

There you go - back to square one again. Maybe I should just stop thinking - prob best thing all round!.
Kizziex

kizzy- i know what you mean about 'reading into everything and seeing AUTISM in everything'...my husband says i read too much.

Soon you will start to notice austistic people everywhere! you start to wonder if a friend's child is autistic etc!

there is also the 'educating ' of everyone around you- as they have fixed ideas about what autism is and you can guarantee they won't believe you- or back up your ideas and strategies.

i get very low sometimes- yet i can hand on heart say that i enjoy learning about it all and when a strategy works i am thrilled.

today my friend suggested that leigh has a "Book of Rules" as he is forever changing and inventing rules. The idea is i draw a chart allowing say 10 rules on a page and if he wants to add a new one then he has to cross of one of the others - so he keeps 10. I like this idea- they use it at the secondary school where she is a teaching assistant. and as leigh loves counting- he will like checking there are 10.