5yo DS excluded from school - what now?

[IsItMeOr]

Reposting from special needs school section, for more traffic.

DS is in reception, and is currently on school action plus with a 1-1 support intervention this half term for his behaviour issues (primarily hurting other children). We're gradually getting through the health assessment process, seeing CAMHS for an initial assessment, have an assessment appointment booked with SLT in a few weeks and on a 6-12 month waiting list for a multidisciplinary assessment for a possible social communication disorder.

DS has today been excluded for two days because he attacked another child in his class. This is described in the letter from the school as an assault.

We have a meeting with school on Monday. Can anybody advise on what we should expect, and what we should be asking?

Thank you in advance - feeling a bit overwhelmed right now.

[SanityClause]

I haven't got anything useful to say, I'm sorry, just a bit of handholding.

My DS has been physically assaulted by one particular boy for a while - he finally told me, and the school has gone through an investigation procedure, and now the boy has had to come up with a plan of action for what he will and won't do in the future.

The thing is, he seems a nice boy, and his mother is lovely. I just think he got into a habit of being horrible to my DS. Since the school got involved, he's been fine, and they are getting on well.

It seems your DS has additional needs, and hopefully this will speed up the whole CAHMS process for him.

[xenzani]

My just turned 8 dd has been excluded from school many times now for hurting others and being out of control: unsafe behaviour. It is horrible to happen and only now have the school realised she can not cope in the class room.

As a pp said, apply for a statement asap. I have thought about doing it many times over the last couple of years but never did. If I had done it sooner, I don't think my dd would be as bad as she is now. I am in the process of doing it myself now and waiting on a couple of things from the school so I can send of the info they want from me.

Ipsea are fab and there is a template to use for SA.

Good luck

[IsItMeOr]

Thank you for your kind words. It does help to know that we're not the only parents to have experienced this. This has been my fear, but I thought that this half term was going to be fine because of the 1-1 full time (but apparently not at lunchtime when the assault happened) intervention.

Will head over to IPSEA and have a read. School were previously advising us to wait until September to apply for the assessment for a statement. From what the head told DH today, it sounds as if we have just missed one meeting where they consider the applications and there isn't another until September. But we can check that out on Monday.

The letter from school has contact details for the council inclusion officer - is it worth contacting them, do you think?

It really does suck, doesn't it?

[AgnesDiPesto]

The legal time limit is the Council must consider your response within 6 weeks. The SEN Code of Practice and Education Act 1996 is whats important, not council policy about when they choose to have their meetings. (The new Children and Families Act 2014 comes into force on 1 Sept).

Don't wait for school to apply, take control of it yourself. And at the meeting ask for 1:1 to cover lunchtime. The school have a legal responsibility to keep staff and children safe - if they start talking about funding say thats between them and the council, all thats important is that needs are met, it doesn't matter who pays or from which budget.

The school can ask for advice from a behaviour support team usually. Ask school if it has accessed all the outside help available.

[IsItMeOr]

Thanks Agnes (love the name, and Moonlighting, by the way).

The school has been really good up to now, and called the council behaviour team in after Christmas when everything started going really pear-shaped.

The behaviour team advice seemed to work for a while, then everything went tricky again towards the end of the last half term. Hence, the head found a trainee teacher who is doing the 1:1 with DS this half term as the trainee's placement at the school.

School has also tried to give us some support, including having a joint meeting with the behaviour team where they gave us some pointers for using at home, which have made things at home much, much better.

So they seem like the "good guys", which makes it all a bit more confusing, I guess.

[OneInEight]

Another one who has been through this although my kids were older when the exclusions started.

When you get your exclusions letter there should be a contact number for the exclusions team - they are worth contacting if only to learn what happens if there is a permanent exclusion. When the axe did drop for us we did find it helpful to know what would happen next.

At the reintegration meeting you could ask for the HT to call a child concern meeting (multidisciplinary meeting) where everybody concerned with your child is gathered in one room including yourselves. Our HT did this without us asking (think she probably asked for permission) and we did find it helpful. She Invited people like CAMHS, EP, Community paediatrician, LA exclusions officer, EWO, school staff involved - basically anyone she could think of that might be of some help. One thing it helped with was the exclusions officer informing the HT what she could and could not do legally with respect to the exclusions (we had had several illegal exclusions at that point without us or her realising they were illegal).

Try also and think of any interventions you think might help the situation such as extra TA support, given alternative lessons for lessons that are trigger points (music, RE and PE for ds2), going in / coming home early or late to avoid the playground, coming home at lunchtime or reduced hours. We found our HT was prepared to be very flexible when we reached this point so it is worth asking.

As others have said the other thing is to get in an application for a statement today. The initial letter can be very brief (template on IPSEA) and you will then have six weeks to collate and write outr your supporting evidence. Might be worth asking for a copy of the school record now also as end of term is rapidly approaching to give them time to photocopy it.

[IsItMeOr]

Thanks OneinEight - I've put in my request for the school record, and made contact with the council inclusion team. Will try IPSEA after bedtime (although suspect that may be their busiest time!).

Phew! Have just spent the day being "teacher" and getting DS to do the sorts of things he would do at school (reading, playing in the garden, etc). Was clearly not what DS was expecting, as it involved multiple attacks on me and not following instructions, which I think meant he spent over an hour in time out over the "school" day. Still, at least it should mean DS doesn't have positive associations with being excluded.

I had no idea that children with SEN were so much more likely to be excluded than children without - I found the stats last night, and was appalled at what seems to me like a massive failure to meet the needs of kids with SEN.

I also had no idea that children weren't allowed to be in a public place while excluded. Does anybody know what is the rationale behind that? I couldn't really figure it out for a 5yo, but then, reading about the pupil's right to present their case to the Head before the Head decides to exclude broke my heart when applying it to 5yo DS.

Hats off to those of you who have faced these challenges and survived - hopefully that means we have a chance of doing so too.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

IPSEA can be very busy in the evenings but they do also have a callback service; it may pay to use that.

//www.ipsea.org.uk

[StarlightMcKenzie]

OP, I'm just checking that you have the official paperwork for the exclusion.

If not, send an email immediately to the headteacher outlining the circumstances of the exclusion.

Please apply for a statement immediately. I cannot stress the importance of this right now. There are changes coming in and they are not going to be positive (they might be eventually but the vague and many interpretations of the very poorly written law mean that it will be broken both intentionally and unintentionally).

The LA and school might tell you that nothing can be done until September but actually, provided your request is in by the 31st of August they MUST put you through on the old system.

The sooner you do this the better however, because the longer you wait, the more likely they'll be to refuse you in order to put your case off until September.

Why are you seeing CAHMS?

[CurrerBell]

Hi IsItMeOr, just to send my support as we're in a similar situation right now (although my DS is in Year 2). He has had two exclusions in the last couple of weeks. We're now decided (with school) that he's only going to do mornings for a while to try and get his stress levels down.

Agree with applying for a statement ASAP. Also the diagnosis will be key to accessing support. Can the school help to get a faster appointment with the paediatric team, especially in light of the new developments? We went straight to a paediatrician and didn't have any involvement from CAMHS. Don't be afraid to shout loudly for DS to be seen as it can take ages otherwise.

If school suspect ASD then they should not be referring to his actions as 'assault'. They need to be looking into exactly what went on before this incident and why DS isn't coping.

[IsItMeOr]

Oh dear, the September changes are now making me anxious. I don't know any detail about them - please does anybody know of a good idiot's guide we can look at?

Nobody knows what is going on with DS. The paediatrician he saw in March ruled out ADHD and ASD, and said that they only thing that she thought was worth assessing further was a social communication disorder. I know that sometimes seems to be used as a generic term that includes ASD and asperger's, but it also seems to be a separate thing which can (often) co-exist with ASD/asperger's. But I may have misunderstood?

It's getting that further assessment which is 6-12 months wait.

In parallel, the school did a CAMHS referral after the paediatrician had made her assessment, because they were concerned about DS's language and interests (can seem fixated on war and fighting, and says some things that might be normal for an older boy in the playground, but apparently upsets the other children in reception - e.g. I'm going to stab your eyes). I think the CAMHS are going to say they don't think he has a mental health condition, and point us back to the people who can assess for social communication disorder.

The only slight niggle I have with the school is that they had been supposed to get the Ed Psych in before summer - which they and the council behaviour team tell me will be the most important assessment for the statement - and that hasn't happened this half term.

We are looking into getting a private assessment for social communication disorder.

And yes, I did baulk at the exclusion, and the use of the term assault, as it feels like DS not being appropriately supported, which is hardly his fault.

[iloveithere]

IsItMeOr,

your DS sounds exactly like mine, he has had several exclusions, (only half days, but about 15 of them), seeing CAMHS, waiting for SLT appointment, goes to the councils run behaviour service school twice a week, and is only in year R.
I have nothing much helpful to offer you, but just wanted to say I understand, we are going through the same thing.

One thing he has had, only yesterday, was an OT assessment, which initially is looking interesting. She thinks she may be able to offer some help, which is the first service to show an interest without saying 'its not in our remit, bye'

[IsItMeOr]

Should we start a club iloveithere?

So sorry that it sounds like your DS isn't getting the support he needs either. We also had a week where DS had to come home at lunchtime until school figured out a way to cover it - but that didn't come with any exclusion documentation, which I suspect might be an omission. It shows as more authorised absences on his report than I was expecting, I think.

We made contact with our local parent partnership today, at the suggestion of the council behaviour team contact. I had looked them up previously and thought that as they were just for children with the most complex needs that couldn't mean us. Am beginning to think it must be us after all! It's a steep learning curve, isn't it?

Our action plan definitely features:

Chasing school to sort Ed Psych ASAP

Getting a private assessment for social communication disorder from
Daphne Keen or somebody else appropriate given her waiting list

Reading up on what the SEN changes from September will mean for us

Deciding when to apply for the assessment (school and council are saying wait to Sept because panel will get a sniff of social communication disorder being a possibility and not make a decision until that's clarified, apparently, although and Ed Psych assessment might be sufficient)

Chocolate, lots of it

[Barefootgirl]

Do NOT wait until September. no-one really knows how things will change at that point, you want to be assessed as asoon as possible. Write your letter to the council asking for Statutory Assessment today, that wat they will have to act before the middle of August, under the old system.

[StarlightMcKenzie]

'school and council are saying wait to Sept because..........' ad infinitum

They're will always be a reason given for waiting.

Every month they can delay you is a month saving of provision resourcing. There is no penalty for applying now. If you are refused you can appeal if you like, but you can also immediately apply the very next day (sensible if you have new evidence however).

You don't have to 'get it right/get it perfect'. You just have to get on with it.

School will always say no point. LA will always say child getting everything without one. You'll here this all the time irrelevant of severity of need.

[iloveithere]

School finally agreed to apply for a statement 'as a matter of urgency' in May, but still haven't sent it off. Apparently they are 'collecting evidence'. I have told them I need it to go next week, but I have no idea how much notice they will take of that request!

IsItMeOr, our DS hasn't been in school for a lunch time since October. I have to collect him every single day for lunch. I was working full time before he started school, not any more!
I will pm you next week, perhaps we can support each other through the statement process.

[Icimoi]

Iloveithere, please don't wait one hour more for the school to apply for a statement, do it yourself. The IPSEA website has information on how to do it.

And if the school is making you take DS home at lunchtimes, that's an illegal half day exclusion every day they've done it. Given that the maximum number of fixed term inclusions permitted is 45 days in a year, they must be well over that by now. If they couldn't cope with him in school all day in October they really should have sent in the request for statutory assessment then.

I suggest that you tell the school that you're not going to collect DS at lunch any more, it's up to them to provide support and supervision for him throughout the school day.

[Icimoi]

OP, it's not surprising the behaviour team's advice didn't work, standard approaches for children with bad behaviour just don't work for social communication disorders. It may well be that your son is acting as he is out of fear and frustration because he can't really understand the world around him and can't communicate how he feels.

Does he have any sensory problems, e.g. sensitivity to noise, light and crowds? That often goes hand in hand with social communication issues, and if so again DS may be reacting to the fact that he finds noise is actually painful.

If those are the real reasons for DS' behaviour, then obviously strategies based on rewards and punishment aren't going to work. You and the school need to identify the underlying reasons and work to ameliorate them and help DS to cope with them as far as possible.

[iloveithere]

He goes back into school after lunch, unless they officially exclude him for half the day, so its only the lunch times he misses. Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread, its about IsItMeOr, not me.

[IsItMeOr]

Thanks icimoi, you have articulated my growing sense that there is something more going on with DS than was first apparent. The Psychologist we saw at CAMHS was explicit that you would need to use very different behaviour management strategies if a child has a social communication disorder - so that seems our most urgent thing to clarify.

DS doesn't have any obvious sensitivity to noise, light and crowds, e.g. Legoland is his favourite place. The community paediatrician ruled out ASD and ADHD.

His struggles relate mostly to his interactions with other children, and following adult instructions if he doesn't feel like it. An adult can help him to navigate play with other children, otherwise he can quickly get very stressed (rigid and "stuck"), and we're at a loss when it comes to how to help him calm down once the pattern has started. This always results in DS doing one of the things that triggers a time out, which can escalate and become a 45 minute battle of wills, with him attacking us with anything he can lay his hands on.

It also seems as if he struggles to express and cope with his own emotions (e.g. gets very distressed if he cries at a sad bit in a film, and finds many films too scary). Competitive games seem to trigger emotions in him that are just too intense for him to cope with - he was excluded from sports day last week because he couldn't keep his hands to himself, despite the 1-1 worker. He struggles a lot with transitions and change. The exclusion happened on the day that they had their taster morning in their new Y1 class.

It isn't as simple as he always reacts badly to a disagreement with another child. It's more like there is a switch, and if he is okay, he will be able to navigate it well enough. But if he is not okay, he will be unable to cope.

Sorry for the essay!

[IsItMeOr]

iloveithere I think the comments about lunchtime exclusion is that it counts as a half day exclusion even if the child goes back after lunch.

If this has been happening since the autumn term, it is almost certainly an unlawful exclusion. That's for at least two reasons - one is the 45 day limit mentioned above. The other is that a fixed term exclusion must have a defined end point, and this sounds like an open-ended arrangement.

I would suggest you speak to IPSEA or Coram Children's Legal Centre.

[iloveithere]

School have been recording it as 'educated off site' I spoke to the LA who told me that was not lawful, so since then I have been insisting on an official letter each time. Good news is, he got through all this week without being sent home once, so I'm really pleased.
Also, the OT seems to think she can really help him, so things are looking better this week.

I think if the school really cant cope with him then their only choice is permanent exclusion. I really want to avoid that, as no other local mainstream school will be any better for him.

I would like him to stay there until the statement can be done and we can apply for the local special school, rather than have to move him to another ms school in the meantime. That is why I am not pushing too hard on the illegal exclusions.

we're at a loss when it comes to how to help him calm down once the pattern has started. This always results in DS doing one of the things that triggers a time out, which can escalate and become a 45 minute battle of wills, with him attacking us with anything he can lay his hands on.

This is so familiar, IsItMeOr, sometimes he complies willingly, others the same request or chain of events can lead to a massive battle, as you describe.

[IsItMeOr]

That sounds overall positive, iloveithere. Fingers crossed it works out for the local special school.

We had our reintegration meeting with Head and Deputy this morning. They are being very supportive, but recognising that it is worrying that we are seeing this aggression even with full time 1-1 support. School will be providing full time 1-1 again from September, and were confident that this would be what DS's statemented support would be in the new system.

So we're focusing our efforts on getting the assessment of social communication disorder sorted asap - trying both nagging the NHS route and trying to find a private option.

[Icimoi]

Have you sent off the appiication for statutory assessment?