Reposting from chat. Please help!

[Faverolles]

Ds2 is 8, being assessed for possible ASD. He's fine at school, but violent and aggressive at home.
We have some times when things are relatively calm, and we feel that we know what we're doing, then we have weeks like this week, which are absolute hell on earth, and drive us to near breaking point.
I don't know if it's a normal back to school thing, but every evening this week, we've (all the rest of the family - me, dh, ds1, dd and ds3) been threatened, punched, slapped, bitten, spat at, sworn at, insulted constantly.
I can't cope. I know he'll calm down a bit at some point, we'll still have this behaviour, but not as intensely. But for now, the whole family is struggling.
We've explained to the older dc (13 and 11) that they need to back off from ds2, when he's feeling angry, he needs space.
Ds1 in particular seems to think that we are favouring ds2 because he gets more time with us, but this week he has only had more time because he has been wound up to the point of being a danger to himself and the others, and one of us has to help him calm down (he usually ends up sobbing that we should just kill him) and basically supervise him.
Ds1 cannot resist winding him up, he doesn't seem able to back off, so we have more outbursts than we should probably have.
I don't want ds1 and dd to feel responsible, but I want them to understand that how they react to him makes a huge difference to the severity of ds2's behaviour - is this unreasonable of me to expect this? (Really, I genuinely want to know!)

Dh and I are relatively new to this, it's only been a few months that we have allowed ourselves to see that there is a problem, and not a naughty child/crap parent situation.
There isn't really anyone in RL who gets what's going on, mostly they think we're soft on him(we're not), or suggest that we get really cross with him (like we don't do that already, but it doesn't work and makes the situation worse)
He has been referred to CAMHS, but that could take months.

We have noticed that we can do practical things that have helped - putting a tent over his bed, giving him opportunities to tell us how he's feeling, and do something calm with him if he's feeling angry, not taking him to the supermarket etc.

This week is off the wall though. Please, please tell me what else I can do to help him. He's such a lovely little boy when he's not angry.


^ I posted the above in chat, I had a thread in here a while ago, but I've lost it.
I really need practical advice. I feel like our family could break up over this, and I don't want that to happen.

[Ilisten2thesoundofdrums]

If he is coming home upset, then could you suggest that he has a TA to give him some time to help with transitions between one activity and the next at school.
This used to happen for DS in primary. He used to also come in from playtime and lunch 5 mins early with the TA and talk about how they had gone -and if there were any issues with it - or anything else on his mind. These little thinking gaps used to calm him considerably so that he could focus on the next activtiy and was a lot calmer when he came home.

Does he like to read or listen to music? We used to find that sending him to his room to do this for a short period when he came back from school allowed him some time to "reset" himself a bit and as a result he was calmer at home. Sometimes they are just exhausted at holding everything together at school and need a bit of space.

Has he been allowed fidget toys at school? We got some from the pound shop, which helped when he had to sit still and listen - the OT suggested it, and has since continually reinforced the need for him still to have them (he is now 13) as they help him to concentrate. He also used to have a move'n'sit cushion on his chair at school which allowed him to fidget without moving his chair around. - I know that you said that school didn't see a problem, but you said that if he has been somewhere where he has been kept still then he is worse later. I wondered if it might be worth exploring this with school?

[Faverolles]

I'll talk to the ht again and see if some of those things can be put in place.

We found our ancient playstation the other day. Ds will sit upstairs by himself playing for a bit, which seems to give him a bit of space from everything.

Last night he had a do at bedtime. When he calmed down, he talked about not wanting his hair cut (I'd put it to him yesterday morning), so I'm wondering if that's what was on his mind? Might have to accept that his hair will be messy and long :o

At home he is constantly on the go, but appears very calm at school, so maybe fidget toys and a wobbly cushion will help.

[Faverolles]

We've tried hugs when he's feeling angry, but he hates any contact at all when he's feeling like that and would quite happily kill us if we tried to cuddle him!

Sometimes bouncing works, sometimes sliding down the stairs in a slippery sleeping bag , head stands, burying himself in cushions/duvets. We get caught off guard too often though, so we definitely need to get better at spotting signals.

I think I have the book on my amazon wish list, so I'll go and buy it now, thank you :)

[Faverolles]

If dh and I work out the best way to deal with it and consistently stick to it, should that eventually rub off onto him and he'll go up to his room willingly?
At the moment, when he feels angry, he doesn't want to be helped, he wants to stay pissed off at everything and we have to physically get him away from everything, will that improve as time goes on, or are there any techniques we can try to go through when he's calm?

Polter, I really appreciate you answering each and every one of my boring repetitive posts! Thank you xx

[Faverolles]

I really like your Guiding Principles. They make a lot of sense and sound like they'll be a better approach than our current "Oh My God what the hell do we do now?" approach :)

As for not many replies, that seems to be the story of my life. I must give off unsociable vibes in RL and on MN, I've been here nearly 5 years so I'm used to it :o
You posted a Tony Atwood link on a thread about girls with ASD. It could have been describing me growing up, which explains a lot!

You are a star posting back every time, when you have enough on your plate to deal with without supporting randoms on the internet :)


Not sure how I can thank you enough really, but it means a lot that someone understands without making judgements.

[Ilisten2thesoundofdrums]

We used to send DS to his room when he started to loose it.
Although he was unhappy at being sent away, it did give him that space to start to calm down. We would check he was Ok, but then give him some time before we tried to talk to him.
Now he often stomps off voluntarily.
Anything that didn't involve engaging with us - so book, a DS game, TV( not in his room) to help him think about something else for a bit and calm down worked.

He also has told me in the past that he hates to talk about problems later as remembering them to talk means going through all the same emotions again. Gradually we have been able to get through that sometimes telling someone and then they think of a simple way around the problems, or make you see its not so awful after all can help.
Do you think that this might be a factor too?

Also the anger is partly an "i don't understand this emotion and don't know how to deal with it" reaction in a lot of cases, so working on identifying emotions can help too.

[Faverolles]

Ds won't go to his room by himself, willingly or unwillingly, so dh or I have to take him up, usually forcefully. I wish there was an alternative, but we can't risk the other dc getting hurt. Once up there (with dh or I sitting quietly) he does calm down, enough to tell us he's feeling better or still feeling angry.

We've been avoiding talking about it a lot after as it does start things up again, so we try to talk when he's calmed down enough to be rational.
He tends to kick off first, then after the meltdown (whether it takes 20 minutes or 4 hours) is more receptive to finding out what's upsetting him.
Last week, we went to the local panto, I was expecting fireworks before, but he was beyond anxious. Dh and I couldn't work out what was going on until I managed to get him out for a walk, and it turned out he thought there was going to be a real giant in it. I explained what was going to happen and he settled down.
Two days later he had a meltdown because he wanted to go again, turned out he wanted to go knowing exactly what was going to happen, knowing he would understand more of the jokes etc.

Someone recommended using emoticons to help him understand what he's feeling, as they are very simple and clear in their meaning - has anyone tried this?

[Ilisten2thesoundofdrums]

I remember we used a prgramme that I downloaded a trial version of which involved trying to match emotions to faces.
[http://www.educateautism.com/emotions.html#.UyBvpud_vW4 this]] looks like a good resource for clear pictures of emotions but more complicated than emoticions.
also [http://www.do2learn.com/games/learningames.htm the feelings game on this page]] looks like it might be a useful game.

[Faverolles]

Thankyou :)

I've been on the phone to the local secondary school who have given me contacts - the school that specialises in autism, ASCOSS (is that autism outreach?). Feeling quite overwhelmed about how I should be proceeding, and knowing what questions to ask, and trying to make sure we find a school where ds will be happy.
The hT (also SENCO) at school has made an appointment with autism outreach at the end of April, as yet we are still winging it and hoping they'll see ds without a formal diagnosis.

[Faverolles]

Bit of a weird evening. Ds has been fairly calm this week, meltdowns every night, but short lived and manageable.
Saw my dsis, and it's becoming more and more obvious that they don't believe me. Whilst I should just grow a thicker skin, at the moment it's not thick enough, and it really hurts.
I don't expect support, i don't really expect anything from them, but I do expect not to be told every time I see them that everything is fine, he's just a normal 8 yr old boy, and that everyone's on the spectrum but it doesn't mean anything.
She only sees him 3 or 4 times a year, another sister sees him 1 or 2 a month, where inevitably he appears fine. They don't see the meltdown that starts in the car on the way home. But isn't that lovely for them, to be able to have the opinion that everything's just fine, but dh and I are dramatic and shit.

Just over a year ago, ds1 was really badly bullied at school, he ended up in such a state that we didn't feel we had any option but to take him out of school. He had a month or so at home before starting at a different school where he has thrived, has friends and is happy. This was too much for some family members who believed we were being over dramatic about it and dealt with it badly (even though, you know, he's really happy now, and socialising again, and not having detentions every week - yeah, we've handled that really badly! haven't we ).

Either we have gone over our quota of crap (I'd quite like to think there should be a cap on shit stuff happening, but sadly there isn't), or people simply don't believe us.
The last four years or so have been a catalogue of shit, which has been dismissed and minimised by the people who, out of everyone I know, should be the ones who can see first hand what's going on and just be nice, but instead it's ok to quiz me and put me to the test, trying to catch me out and prove that I'm lying, and quite honestly, it feels fucking horrible :(

Another dsis has suggested I write a letter to them. I think I might, as it might be cathartic, but I don't think I'll send it, as if think they'll just pull that to bits too.
Part of me is tempted to put a PA note on FB, but that's not fair on ds. I don't want people to think differently of him.

Anyway, don't feel you need to answer, I just needed to get that off my chest!

[TheLightPassenger]

agree with Polter. Honestly, this is a really really common experience, that family and friends minimise and imply that stricter parenting would sort it all out. a form of denial I guess, as thinking parents need to be stricter is a lot less scary a thought than thinking a child may have some form of SN/ASD. I don't have any better advice than to try and see less or talk less deeply to people who aren't going to be supportive, and talk more to people who are supportive.

[Faverolles]

Tough night tonight (for a change).
I don't think I handled it well, but not sure how I should have done things differently.
We went to my dsis for an hour or so, ds was already feeling angry but didn't know why. He played on the trampoline, dd and dn joined in, ds not happy, both girls subtly winding him up (normal family squabbly stuff), I went to the trampoline, called dd and ds over, told them I could see what was going on, and that they both had to stop it or we were going home.
Dd cried and said I was favouring ds, as he was being a pain.
Dd and dn got off, ds did mega bouncing for 10 minutes and was then ok.

There is a recurring theme of dd feeling badly done to - ds swears at her (when in angry mode), so she nips him or smacks him, and can't understand why we're then cross with her. I don't know how to help them understand.
We do pull him up about swearing, but generally when he's at that point, we might as well be telling off a brick for all it goes through.

Any tips?

[Ilisten2thesoundofdrums]

We have an absolutely no violence rule regardless of anything. That might cover your DD. The rule is that you can ask for help or walk away but no violence. If there is violence then that will be punished regardless of anything else.
Polter gives good advice about other rules being set up in advance.
I also remind the DC's that I expect the same rules to apply re good behaviour at home and out, and that I will tell off/punish no matter who is looking or listening ( that would be for DD - DS wouldn't understand the social implication of that) but DS then does understand that normal rules are not suspended in another house/location in fact he complains I am more strict elsewhere - which is probably true as we have others rules to add into our list too.
DD is youner than DS ( she is 11) and gets that his mind works differently to hers and he is not good with social situations and has a quick temper. she knows full well if she deliberately winds him up there will be trouble for her too. In response to your original post therefore I think that whilst it may be hard on your other Dc's to skirt around DS when he is finding things difficult, that as it makes things worse for them too then it is not unreasonable of you to ask that they make allowances. Can you think of anything that you go out of your way for them for that you could use as a comparison? It could be something small like you don't make them eat sprouts, or you find time to take them to XYZ each week for an activity - so show that there is give and take in all families

[Faverolles]

I think last night, I'd assumed (note to self: never assume!) that the girls would be playing indoors, when what I should have done was gone through every scenario and warned ds. When he started to kick off, I should have just taken him home.

Dd seems to be going through a phase of really resenting ds. She gets loads of 1-1 time, and activities, and socialises more than the rest of us put together. We have 4 dc, and make sure we spend time with each of them, and give the older two time out from being with ds2.

We are trying to put the onus on ds2 - if he's feeling angry, he needs to stay out of the others' way, which on paper is all very well, but we're not quite there in real life! Dh and I are happy to stay with him, but only if he's not swearing at us or threatening.

We do have a rule of no violence, but when anger strikes, there is generally a violent outburst which leads to retaliation. When ds is feeling happy, he completely understands the no violence rule, but he's like Jekyll and Hyde, and when he's ticked off, only his rules apply.

I've been reassured though that he'll be absolutely fine though, because he looks normal. So that's a relief :o

[Faverolles]

I feel a bit bad for outpouring here.
DH will only talk so much about stuff, and sometimes I need to talk more than he wants to listen.
Sorry if I come across as a moany old cow.