Asperger's is .... (with apologies to MrsF)

[binkie]

MrsForgetful, your message touched a chord and I really hope you don't mind me copying you.

For anyone who has an Asperger's child, or knows about the condition: can it be so mild that the symptoms are clumsy speech, naivety, and inability to follow group social cues (though OK one-on-one or when directed)?

So: no insistence on routines/rituals, no single-track obsessions (and instead lots of different interests which change), no sensory problems, loads of interest in stories and making up own (and very happy when other children join in)?

Ds is nearly 5.

Yes - that's what I meant to say Davros... didn't explain myself v well.

jimjams - I think my ds is also an exception as he has excellent physical health.... and I would say that my family is eccentric. dh certainly is but have no links to his background as he is adopted

I agree that the spectrum shouldn't be widened as this would distract from the particular difficulties that AS and ASD people have.

I like the idea of the landscape.

Just picked this up from an internet autism news service I belong to. It looks very complicated to me! Someone scientific tell us what it says!

RESEARCH

Growing Evidence that Asperger's is Not Autism
"Investigation of Neuroanatomical Differences Between Autism And Asperger Syndrome"

LINKHERE

Arch Gen Psychiatry. 2004 Mar;61(3):291-8.
Lotspeich LJ, Kwon H, Schumann CM, Fryer SL, Goodlin-Jones BL, Buonocore MH, Lammers CR, Amaral DG, Reiss AL. Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences and the Stanford Psychiatry Neuroimaging Laboratory, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, Calif.

BACKGROUND: Autism and Asperger syndrome (ASP) are neurobiological conditions with overlapping behavioral symptoms and of unknown etiologies.
Results from previous autism neuroimaging studies have been difficult to replicate, possibly owing to site differences in subject samples, scanning procedures, and image-processing methods.
We sought (1) to determine whether low-functioning autism (LFA; IQ/=70), and ASP constitute distinct biological entities as evidenced by neuroanatomical measures, and (2) to assess for intersite differences.
METHODS: Case-control study examining coronally oriented 124-section spoiled gradient echo images acquired on 3 magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) systems, and processed by BrainImage 5.X.
Participants were recruited and underwent scanning at 2 academic medicine departments.
Participants included 4 age-matched groups of volunteer boys aged 7.8 to 17.9 years (13 patients with LFA, 18 with HFA, 21 with ASP, and 21 control subjects), and 3 volunteer adults for neuroimaging reliability.
Main outcome measures included volumetric measures of total, white, and gray matter for cerebral and cerebellar tissues.
RESULTS: Intersite differences were seen for subject age, IQ, and cerebellum measures.
Cerebral gray matter volume was enlarged in both HFA and LFA compared with controls (P =.009 and P =.04, respectively).
Cerebral gray matter volume in ASP was intermediate between that of HFA and controls, but nonsignificant.
Exploratory analyses revealed a negative correlation between cerebral gray matter volume and performance IQ within HFA but not ASP.
A positive correlation between cerebral white matter volume and performance IQ was observed within ASP but not HFA.
CONCLUSIONS: Lack of replication between previous autism MRI studies could be due to intersite differences in MRI systems and subjects' age and IQ.
Cerebral gray tissue findings suggest that ASP is on the mild end of the autism spectrum.
However, exploratory assessments of brain-IQ relationships reveal differences between HFA and ASP, indicating that these conditions may be neurodevelopmentally different when patterns of multiple measures are examined.
Further investigations of brain-behavior relationships are indicated to confirm these findings.
PMID: 14993117 [PubMed - in process]

Davros....can i 'quote' you when i write my next letter to the school!!!!?

You wrote "good receptive language and poor expressive"

I think that says in 6 words verything about ds1's 'written' problems....in that he can read fantastically but when it comes to writting his own stories....well ! You can guess! Also this past week his teacher has 'commended' him for some 'excellent' work on an 'imaginary' greek monster....i asked him to show me and i was not at all suprised to see that his drawings and stories were all about 'DIGIMON' characters and their various 'Weapons and tecniques'- so at parents evening next week i will 'demonstrate' this - however i am thrilled that he has done such elaborate drawings and written 'such a large story'- but i do think it should be pointed out that 'if' the teacher knew about'digimon' then the work would not have been seen as 'ds1 demonstrating his 'creative' side' but more of him 'writing/drawing about his latest obsession'!!!!!

Oooh MrsF, I love to be quoted but make sure you refer to me as Dr Davros

which letters would you like me to add after your name? !!!

I know this thread has moved on to much more interesting things, but going back to the beginning our ed psych has ruled out Asperger's for ds & since all I could ever find while worrying is lists of positive signs (& not counter-indications) I thought I would post our ed psych's reasons why he was sure no autistic spectrum issues (though still making clear I've got to accept ds is always going to be eccentric). So, for ds, the reasons why not were his being able to:

• "take the emotional temperature of a situation" - ie tell when someone was out of patience with him, & on other hand be pleased at praise;

• manage personal space in a normal sort of way;

• not be hung up on detail;

• not be thrown by figurative language;

• (it seems crucially) whenever asked easily move from one suggested activity to another; and

• when in an unfamiliar place like the ed psych's office, show general sense of what's going on (if that makes sense - ie not being bewildered & disorientated).

I do realise "reasons why not" are going to be as personal to each child as "reasons why" but this sort of list would have been useful to me over the last few months - so just in case for anyone else.

I think thats a good list bikie. And it emphasises Davros's point that she's made elsewhere that there is a big difference between a child who "almost" has AS than one who has AS or HFA.

I agree wholeheartedly with Mrsforgetful about the teachers comments.
My 6 year old son is into Thomas the tank engine, and is very good at writing stories and making them up if it is about Thomas. His drawings are those of an 8 or 9 year old - absolutely stunning in detail. He can hear a 30 minute story from his Thomas tape and repeat it word perfect, though he cannot remember something he is told 30 times a day from me (hey, I guess this is just kids eh?). He is high functioning and bright, but being ADHD and Asperger's can be very hard work.
The school will not statement him as academically he is brilliant and can read with no problems at all, but he needs the emotional support of the classroom assistant constantly. It is only because he takes Ritalin that he is in mainstream school but is always infront of the headmistress. It doesn't seem fair.

Binkie - very relieved for you, and thanks for posting that list - it does seem useful.

Re. the "figurative language" - when you say your DS is not "thrown" by it - does that mean that he understands the gist of it without you/teacher/whoever having to explain it, or does that mean that he is initially confused by it, but understands the explanation? My DS1 is initially confused by expressions like "raining cats and dogs" but seems happy to accept my explanations of them, and even tries to use some of them himself (e.g. "Peel your eyes!" for "Keep your eyes peeled!".

sorry don't know where that winkie came from

Dino, the ED said very confidently "oh, and he doesn't take things literally - he understands what you're saying to him" - I presume, given that I'd asked him to scrutinise for Asperger's-type features, he'd been chucking in a few idioms to see how ds reacted. I'm rather relying on the ED's experience there. In fact altogether - still watching the post for the written report.

On your question: if you use a figure of speech ds hasn't heard before sometimes there'll be a bit of a pause then he'll say "does that mean ..." and get fairly close. He seems to like explanations almost for the sake of them, so he'll often ask for one even if all he's doing is confirming the idea he's already got - so I don't know if there's been a intuitive grasp. Unlike yours, though, I don't think I hear him using them himself - think that's brilliant (and sweet) of yours!

I do notice that ds genuinely enjoys poems (surprised by this, didn't think kids did really) with lots of images in them, however unusual, and does just seem to drink those in (without asking or seeming confused). Sorry so long - is that helpful at all?

Interesting. DS1 also seems to enjoy poems and I must admit I just leave him to his enjoyment, I don't really try and analyse what he has understood or not understood.

CHOCOL8..... EVERYTHING you said is so like i feel---Thomas takes ConcertaXL (same as RITALIN) and like you feel he gets no support at school because of this- as the medication saves the teachers the effort....however to stop his medication (so he'd get the help he deseves) would be cruel to him- so we keep plodding on.
This week so far he has tried to bring home from school(illegally!) a digital camera twice and aheadset/microphone set & noone remined him to go to lunch on tuesday ......and then weds he was sobbing because it turned out that his teacher is off sick so his class of 36 have been split up and sent to different classes throughout the school- he has been with yr 1/R and he is yr5....without any support with this transition....he has reacted badly to this- and i got so upset too- that i felt unable to get any of my 3 to school yesterday- then Thomas was sick 6 times yeaterday- probably a tummy bug...but suffering from axiety myself i also know how it can make you sick too.

I suppose the reason i ended up feeling too ill to function yeasterday was that in my head there was this list of 'problems' to discuss with the SENCO/HEAD... and it was getting longer daily.

Instead I rang social services and explained the fact that Thomas's Welfare is a cause for concern at school- and even mentioned 'Discrimination and Neglect'...so will let you know.

Thanks Chocol8 for simply reminding me that i am not alone with this 'bright child who has needs' but statementing seems to offer no hop

oops! That should be 'No hope!'

Hi there

I'm new on this site. Read this thread, and decided I had to join. I have a 5, (nearly 6) yr old aspie son. He has some other health issues, he seems dyspraxic & dyslexic & has EDS III/hypermobility variant, which means his ligaments are so lax its hard for him to write or draw, and too much movement in the bones in his feet causes a lot of pain, so we have to go see wheelchair services next week to see about getting him a major buggy, as his pain on walking seems to be getting worse (he wears orthotics and piedro boots).

The comments about lack of support at school really struck a chord with me, been there, done that... ended up with a traumatised, depressed 4 yr old who started self - harming, having toilet accidents every day at school etc, etc - and all they managed to teach my bright kid in 6 months was a song about the weather!!!!! GRRRRRR.

His class teacher agreed he needed a fulltime LSA, but did he get one? No chance. They made him sit on a cushion the whole school day instead!!! When he caught the chickenpox, and had to stay at home, the transformation was remarkable, within days he was a happy little boy again. I realised that school was causing his problems and de-registered him immediately, to start home educating. That was a year ago, and all of his healthcare team have commented on his excellent progress. Its hard work having him around ALL of the time, but at least his behaviour is no longer one big constant meltdown.

He is now saying he would like to go back to school again, but he doesn't really understand what he's asking for. When I pointed out what it would actually involve he lost all enthusiasm. But, I'm investigating all of the options anyway, next month I have some people coming on a home visit to discuss the options.

I know that mainstream school (even a good one)does not offer the support he needs, I think the only practical options would be mainstream flexischooling (with an LSA), or a MLD school. I think MLD school would be the best option really - as they tend to offer life skills classes and teaching according to ability rather than age, and have much smaller class sizes, (usually about 11 pupils per class), and are not as competitive. This is very important, as my son just stops trying if he feels his work is not as good as other people's.

What are everyone else's thoughts on schools?

Hi artistmum, nice to meet you. My DS1 will be five in August and was diagnosed last year as high-functioning autistic.

There is EDS in DH's family - his mother was diagnosed with it about 10 years ago (she's dead now).

Sounds like you areu doing a fantastic job for your son. I haven't got any useful advice - DS1 has been in REception in mainstream school for one term, and is actually managing quite well, much to my surprise and delight, but just wanted to say hello anyway.

Hi Mrsforgetful...yes, it's good to have a reminder that we are "not the only ones" - it gives me hope and strength.

My ds is on Ritalin but I did try him on Concerta XL but it just did not work - it was as if he was off all medication completely...a nightmare week. Yes, the school he goes to need a constant kick up the bum via the headmistress to get them moving in the right direction, but as you said: if you stopped the medication it would be cruel to him.

You and others like us are not alone - and I need to remind myself at those times when he kicks off. I started him on IQ 3 months ago and have had discussions with the Managing Director of IQ about when I took ds off it and he reverted to similar behaviour to when he was 3 - ie. bloody awful.

DS is as lovely as he is awful and changes within seconds sometimes....just dealing with the aftermath of me being a "horrible mummy" cos he dropped spaghetti down his pj's....this is usual, but horrible.

Your ds school should be aware of his asperger's and not split his class up unless he can be with this friends to make the transition easier. My son is lucky that he has a wonderful classroom assistant who absolutely adores him, but without her, I don't know what I would do, it doesn't bear thinking about.

Please let us know about social services reply...should be interesting! xx

artistsmum- i'm so glad you posted about your son- what you said about the 'chicken px' and you realising then how bad school made him feel is exactly how i felt on thursday when Thomas was sick 6 times- have tried to convince myself that it was a bug- however now there's no 'sign' of school for 2 weeks he is 'a different child'....I wrote a 'final' letter to the school that clearly stated my anger at how things have gone- but the next step i am unsure- i feel i have my fingers in loads of pots - even the school nurse called me- and yet noone is responding fast enough for me- this is where my impatience is a disability in itself.I am considering something JimJams said to me about changing schools- as there is another school within walking distance - which has less of a 'achademic' reputation - more of 'Special needs'...A friend of mine who is a TA said that from what she knows of Thomas (and Leigh) that neither of them would 'suffer educationally' if they were to join a less achademic school- she says i need to ask the Head to consider they attend there because of it's reputation as a 'caring school'.

Does anyone know what i mean!!!

I almost feel like giving my 10yr old thomas a 'Year Out' now....rather like a student taking a year out after university! then he could start secondary school next year....however reality kicks in so the next best solution would be to find a school which would focus on 'nurture' rather than 'traditional education'- he would benefit from social skills work too.

mrsforgetful - this other school sounds promising - it does sound from what you have said as if your boys would benefit so much from more care at school - I told DH about nobody even being prepared to remind your son to eat his packed lunch and he was really shocked!

Yes...I've made a descision.... I am writing to this school in the hope that the HEAD may read it over the holidays- expressing an interest in his school for my sons.

I feel i have now got myself into such a state over thie school thay are at now that even if all the problems dissapeared overnight that i would not forgive them.

This feels now it is an issue with me as much as my boys- and therefore i have to try the other option.

I found out more about the school today- an NT parent would cringe but i welcomed the fact that the school has 150 less pupils.... but out of 250- 44 are statemented....at the current school there are 400 pupils and only 4 statemented.....who knows in a different life i'd have chosen the school they are at now as it is moving up on ther league tables....but I have 'THIS LIFE' and i'd rather they were in a school where as part of 'Inclusion' they will be with a few more SN children than they are now.... too much LEA inclusion involves putting our kids in an environment where they see no other child with their difficulties....so no wonder they feel different and excluded- whereas if the school has a mainly NT base but a fair few SEN too....then they are not alone!

Hope i make sense- i'm beginning to go on a 'high' after my low....so here go a run of my rambling posts!!! !!!

Totally agree with you Mrs F. As you know dd goes to a low acheiving school, as nearly 50% have statements. Not only has he school got the unit but there are lots of children statemented for all kinds of problems. Being with other SN children has really benefitted dd and I have benefitted from having lots of mums to talk to that understand what it is like to have SN children. The school has a great understanding of SN and that's what counts. The school has just recently had an excellent Ofsted because it is a really good school but due to the amount of SN kids and the low league table results it has a bad reputation - unjustified IMO. Good luck with your letter, I think it's a really good idea.

KPB.....sounds just like this school i'm thinking of- i even walked along there today to see what it looked like- the present school takes us 7 minutes on a good day to walk to...this other one is 15 mins.... however 15 mins is still not too bad!
And the best bit for me was had no main road to walk along- the boys loved the way we had to take 'short cuts' through alley ways to get there....only had 1 road to cross!

What you said about the other SN mums is the other thing that crossed my mind today- i desparately need that for me- i feel so isolated at the school they are at now....beginning to realise this change of schools is for me as much as them.

Can you help me on how would be a good way to approach the Head of this 'underachieving school' without offending him- i don't want him to feel i will start demanding support specific to my sons- as i am quite confident that in that kind of environment there will be a totally different attitude to my sons so feel less anxious about the lunchtimes etc.....however want him to understand the desparation i feel so that he 'wants' us.....can he refuse....if he's got spaces and no one in their catchemnt wants a place....can he say no if he's alraedy got so many SN??? I know they have an SN unit attatched- but i'm not asking they get 'put' in there....may be felt that is best which would be great- however to start with to simply be at a school 'like that' will be plenty to get me and them through to July.

Though today was a tough day and i was reminded why i 'appreciate' the break i get when they are school- i am also feeling sick (really) with the prospect of after easter and back to THAT school.

Also i don't want to make him think i am 'trouble'- none of the last few weeks would have 'happened' if the current school had just 'cared' properly.

hI THERE! I'm Sharon

I struggled with all the abbreviations!!! there are loads....DS is 'Son'...ds1 ds2 ds3 if you have more than 1....DD is the same but for daughter.....anything else coul be MIL= Mum in law.....DH= hsband etc!!!!!

DX= diagnosis

IYSWIM= IF YOU SEE WHAT I MEAN

TBH= TO BE HONEST

welcome to our little gathering ....i will post here after bank holiday as i have 3 boys (2 are autistic) and a grumpy ol'husband!

p.s.... i gave up abreviating names as i started to mix up my ds1 and 2 and 3!!!!

but most people are annonymous....in my case i tell everything to everyone....so if anyone read my posts that knew me they'd know immediately !!!!