ok what do you do when they start wanting to see the whole thing?

[Jimjamskeepingoffvaxthreads]

I know this is common in autism, but I can't remember what you are meant to do. If ds1 sees us start something, but not finish it he has (as of this week) started going ballistic So for example he saw dh shaving then left the room and so missed the water going down the sink and made dh fill it up again. He missed ds3 getting out of the bath, and tried to get us to undress ds3 and put him back in the bath- we refused but he howled for an hour. He missed me turning off the shower and wanted it on and off again. Missed the end of the washing machine cycle and insisted on a new load going on.

Soooo what am I meant to do? I will ring the clinical psych but has anyone been through this. I thought of trying repetitive gentle explanation, but he can't hear me because he's screaming and bititng himself.

Well today was an example.?he left the house at 10am, when the washing machine was on, got back at 5.30 (was at respite) and the first thing he did was check the washing machine. found it finished (the load was still in there though) and started howling the place down, then dragged dh up to the dirsty washing basket. We have guests tonight so rather than spend the next 3 hours arguing with him about it, we put another load on- and he hasn't budged since (it's just finished and I can hear my mum persuading him to leave it).

He will accept a small bit of water/a quick sit down but this is spreading and I can see it being everything soon. Oh god I'm just going to have to grit my teeth and do it aren't I, refuse. next week maybe.....

Hand biting is a very typical SIB in that there are certain "favoured sites" and that is one of them..... DS's typical one is forearm to forehead.
I can see why you don't want to go cold turkey this week, ugh. Tell yourself you WILL do it next week or as soon as it is practical. In the meantime you either have to accommodate (as in the extra washing load) or avoid if possible. I think its something you'll have to try to crack with a lot of howling on his part and determination on your part. You may get an "extinction burst" where it gets worse before it gets better, ugh!

I'm not sure if it's the entirely same problem but my four year old has had a thing about completeness and finishing things too. I think it's very common in autism but also partly a developmental stage too so a bit of both. It was very apparent during the home visitss form our preschool teacher, he'd lose interest in whatever activity they were doing (short attention span) and mess about or try to move onto the next activity but because of his thing about completeness he'd get really upset if he didn't finish it despite not being interested! She would find a way of helping him finish activities quickly so he had that sense of completeness and he'd then move on. She suggested we did the same if he got like this about other things as otherwise he would get very anxious. Her mantra was always 'look at the reasons behind the behaviour and tackle them' as that was often more successful than dealing directly with the behaviour itself. She also suggested meeting him half way on things or setting boundaries so allowing him to do the final thing but me doing the rest. This could be turning the computer off, putting on the washing machine, lots of things really

Over the last couple of weeks we've had similar thing if he's watching a DVD and wants to go to the loo. Previously he'd just stop it and restart it when he came back but he now wants to rewind the whole tape to the beginning which we can't let him do. Instead he's allowed to wind it back for a seconds and then he has to watch it from that point. Still might have a meltdown but not nearly so bad as not letting him do it at all

Thankfully DSs need for completeness isn't as bad as it used to be so maybe it can just be a phase.

lx

Jimjams

I think my advice will sound rubbish to you because our ds is very different to yours, and I havent read the whole thread! - here it is fwiw

Ds gets upset if things dont go according to his plan. So I try to warn him that things might happen differently to what he is expecting - which does usually work - although I do sometimes stil get screaming and sobbing and flapping hysteria reactions too!!!!

I definitely try not to give in once I have set the rules and boundaries.

I bet that doesnt help at all! but I wanted to try!!!!

I can remember ds going through a phase a little bit like that jimjams - but I've got no useful advice to give you I'm sorry. I think I used to try to meet ds's demands as far as I possibly could eg I would have gone back to the loo, or re run some water in the bath - but at the time I only had ds to worry about so it was relatively 'easy' to accommodate some of his demands. Dh and others thought I was hopelessly indulgent with him but to my way of thinking I was just trying to meet his needs as best I could.

I can see what you are saying redsky- and first I thought this might be developmental (ie he has realised that things happen when he's out and doesn't like it). Now I'm leaning towards thinking it is compulsive and it really isn't good for him to indulge his compulsions too much (as they soon get to the stage where you can't do anything because you are lurching from one compulsion to the next with no time for rest). He was ultra tense last night after the extra washing load- really, really stimmy. He watches a Hi 5 video before bed and was all rigid and jerky (he kind of kneels up and arches his back in a jerky movement). Good news so far - I haven't yet been asked to redo anything today.

Davros I think you are right I need to steel myself. Once I decide to do it - it is normally all over in 24 hours, but it's easier if he spends 7 of those at school :o And then of course it's just a case of waiting to see what replaces it (mind you we already have lots of other compulsions on the go eg kitchen lights on, kitchen cupboads shut, study lights off etc so maybe those will suffice for a while).

DS1 has dropped the forearm to head/chin movement in favour of the biting. I think I prefer the biting to be honest, he used to really hit his head/chin hard.

lizlocket is right of course that you should always try to work out the function of a behaviour before you even attempt to tackle it. BUT, some behaviours are just ASD or OCD or whatever imo. They do have a function but its "maladaptive". So you can use all the behavioural approaches but in the end you may just have to grit your teeth through trying to break it, in the nicest possible way! It is prob a control/anxiety thing but is expressed in an ASD way. YOu could go the whole hog and take data, see if there is a pattern to what makes him more anxious or want more control (if that is what does underly the behaviour), you still have to decide what to do in the end......

fio- imo many people with severe learning difficulties show autistic type behaviours.

Well we didn't escape. Was heating up ds3's bottle in the microwave and was made to do 3 seconds again. Of course this is just feeding the compulsion. The more this goes on the more I think it's just compulsive......

I think there is a time element to it as well. The short term pressing the button for an extra 3 seconds is feeding a kind of compulsion thing as it gives immediate results. Being out of the house and wanting to see things finished is a bit different simply because he is not there - I think many autistic people think that things aren't 'real' somehow unless they experience them directly. So its also wanting to do it from beginning to end - because they have a sense of completedness but also to actually be a part of the event itself. Does that make sense?

Can't really think straight at the mo as dd is wittering away at me...

Fio, I would say that classic autism (Kanner's autism) is likely to be dx younger. The signs are clearer and the differences to NT more obvious. I consider DS to be very typical and he was dx at 2 and we'd had to WAIT for that appt!

yes that does make sense eulalia, and I guess that's why I started the thread, when I said somethiong developmental I wondered whether it was something like he's suddenly noticed things are happening when he;s not there but doesn't know what to make of that. Thank you, i know what i was asking now! And it could be that. Hmmm have help in all day tomorrow so will try psych.

Jimjams my ds does a similar thing but not quite so extreme. i've just put some ironing away & didn't take him upstairs with me, so I have had to take him back upstairs & show him what I have done. I can normally get away with pointing & talking thru what I have done rather than repeating the action. But if I stop talking/explaining before we get to the end he explodes.. lots of head slapping, silent tears & breath holding.
The talking seems to be the thing for him rather than the action.
We are waiting for an autism assessment but he does have other dx so not sure where this fits. I have always put it down to his need for routine & to know every step??
Sorry no wise words to offer just hope its a phase! Good luck.

Yes, I found that talking through something, i.e. running commentary, helped a lot. Also just labelling things. DS has an OCD-type behaviour which I call "repetitive asking". He tugs his t-shirt over and over or points to the window. Other people say "oh, he's hot and wants to take his t-shirt off", "he wants to go outside" etc, but imo (and the Paed agrees)the apparent request is not the actual function, it is partly communication (although he can communicate many things effectively) and it is repetitive/OCD. It is extremely annoying! I often just say "yes, its your t-shirt", "its the window" etc. He does it sometimes more than others, 100s of times sometimes! I respond in a variety of ways, which prob isn't correct . Either label (as above), ignore, do it back to him, tell him to do whatever it appears to be that he wants etc.

My ds4 also does this. It drives me mad. He seems to need to see the whole of something to validate it in his mind.

I try to see it along these lines.

My dh tells me he is going to run the dishwasher, I watch him load the plates & run the washer. I realise there are no dishwasher tablets in the house but dh says he put one in when I wasn't looking. The plates come out, they look clean but the niggling doubt is in my mind that he didn't put one in. If I had seen the whole sequence I would have known for sure.

I know that sounds barmy but its the way I look at the situation for ds4. He needs to know the correct sequence for an event and this has to be carried out the same way each time to make sense for his mind to process it.

I don't actually have a solution though other than trying to keep an eye out for when something is building into this kind of event.

My son does things like that. He has wee routines when he goes out of the house and each time does things in the same order. Whenever he goes to Mcdonalds hell drink the drink then hell eat the nuggets then the chips. After that he runs over to the table at the window and looks out for a minute until i bring him back to my table. Then ill take him to the toilet to change his nappy and then hell sit at the kids table and look out the window and i will sit beside it for a few minutes. Then i`ll put him in the buggy and away we go! I bet people ho have nt kids dont notice them do exactly the same thing every time as we notice our asd kids doing. My older son is 5 with adhd he like things in order but nowhere near to the extent that my 3 year old does.

oh ds1 does that as well Davros, but says bye bye to everything. He doesn't mean bye bye though, he means "oh look its a", and I have to respond by saying bye bye whatever it is. But as everything in ds1's language is "du dye an" or "dudye aiyan" then I can get it wrong. Oh dear. I am not popular then.

At the moment it is defintely extending, so I am having to reopen and shut doors if he isn't standing in exactly the place he wants to be when the (internal) door shuts. of course he won't shut the bloody thing himself. DS3 appears to think (copying ds1) that doors are to play with, so he ends up getting tangled up in the whole thing. grrr.

Oh God that 'lazyness' thing annoys me. ds won't go into his bedroom to get something, I have to go with him although he's now turning poor dd into a housemaid for him as she's always fetching things for him or coming through and saying "ds needs you". Wonder how long it'll be before she gets fed up of that!

I don't think its laziness on ds1's part I think it's that he has to be standing in an exact position to watch and can't if he is doing it himself. For some reason he also needs his handa over his ears atm when shutting doors! One door has to have the handle turned up a bit to keep hit shut and however many times we do it hand on hand he just doesn't seem to get it.

Wasn't being totally serious. My ds also sometimes won't take something offered to him if he is holding something else and will say "I can't I am holding x" doesn't seem to occur to him to actually put the other thing down!

ha ha ds2 does that! He is lazy though, or at least in a little emperor phase "mummy go upstairs and get my trains alright and bring them to me I will be watching scooby doo" err no!