metallothionein and autism- too good to be true?

[Jimjambells]

OK have ignored the biomedical side for about a year or so as we have been concentrating on other things (and I don't like doing too much at once or it becomes very confusing and you don't know what's working).

Am looking into it all again. I have just come across Walsh's work on metallothionein. Has he published yet? He said he released the results early so everyone could benefit.

Anyway he samples 503 autistic children and found that in 499 of them there was a problem with their metallothionein proteins (apparently there are 4 different types and different children have different ones not functioning). His groups was a mix of ASD, AS and PDD. I think children with AS had metallothionein proteins that were sub-optimal whereas in those further along the spectrum they were stuffed.

Anyway the work is interesting (and I haven't really gone into this yet) as the proteins are involved in heavy metal detoxification and alos something to do with viruses (as I said I haven't read it). But it gives a mechanism by which thimerosil and say MMR floors some children but is foine for others. It all seems very neat (and would stuff the dept of health as is basically identifies a subset of children who are more suscpetible to environmental assualt).

Now Walsh seems to work to restore the proteins fuinction- basically by altering the zinc copper ratio (autstic kids have shed loads of copper usually which inhibs metallothionein function). He works in the states, doesn't seem to use nasty chelation (says it works too quickly and causes all sorts of problems) . They don't seem to offer an international service unless you travel to see them regularly.

So questions:

a) Does anyone know anything that has been publiehd on this yet. He seems bona fide as I found links to his work from good university biochemistry research groups.

b)anyone know anyone in the UK who will do this sort of stuff (walsh's centre uses blood tests and aims to get thse proteins working, most groups here seem to use hair samples and just to restore say zinc, without worrying about the ratio of zinc to copper)

c) anyone know of a UK DAN doctor (but not danzack - he seems a bit odd).

d)Anyone done open windows essential training (online course about all the biomedical stuff)

e) anyone seen a nutri-link practioner- and do they do heavy metal stuff.

Sorry lots of questions.

Oh - Walsh says that with treatment you still have an autistic child, but you may see large gains, eg better eye contact, verbal rather than none verbal, less stimming etc. He's not claiming to "cure".

jimjams - i can't answer any of your questions but want to send you lots of encourgaement. This research sounds very interesting and hope that it will help your ds1 and therefore the rest of your family too
hope that you had a lovely xmas

jimjams you will have [rpbably seen this but just incase.....look here

yeah thanks for that popsycal. Just been looking at that. Will see if they wil ship internationally....

oh btw- by too good to be true- I mean is the exmplanation a bit too neat to be true. You know one dodgy protein + too many heavy metals (hi thimerosil) or live viruses (hi MMR) and hey presto body's entire system screwed up and hello autism. Oh and it also supposedly explains the gut problems. As dodgy metaollothionein can lead to carrier proteins in the gut being bound with mercury or something (need to read more on this). So it even ties in with Wakefield's work and Sunderland's. ANd it ties in with the genetic work as it will show a high heritability.

But then again PKU is one dodgy enzyme with massive problems resulting unless its picked up at birth- and then special diet = no problems so I guess it can be something simple.

Davros- you might be interested in reading up on it re your daughter's MMR vs singles. I did find something that linked the 2 (basically the problem is with multiple live viruses - more than one at a time). Also if this metallothionein stuff is true looks like your decision to avoid thimeoril was a good one. (Must admit I did exhale with a thank f*). Not a lot of people know this but I did take DS2 to his first vaccination appointment. Decided not to go ahead when in there. If I had he would have been given thimerosil that day.......

jimjams...do you know whether the single vaccines for M, M and R have thermisol....?

they don't popsycal.

thanks jimjams....sprry to hijack your thread but after having the mmr vs single jabs dilemma, i am now having the single vs no jabs at all dimemma!!

A good friend of mine has been to Dr Walsh's clinic and undergone this "treatment" (sorry, don't understand it well enough to know correct terminology). She was absolutely convinced that it was the way to go and she spent a LOT of money doing it. She has not kept it up and does not seem to want to go any further with it and I'm not entirely sure why. We had lunch recently when she told me she wasn't keeping it up but we got side tracked into the usual gossip and I didn't get the full story. She's away at the moment but I'll ask her for full info when she gets back.

Jimjams, I tell you what else is very interesting about this, something that I doubt anyone else has looked into- at least one of the metallothionein genes (III) has a trinucleotide repeat at the 5' end of the gene that is translated into polyglutamine (I found it in mice; it was the most polymorphic repeat we ever found). If MTs are implicated in autism then I bet you $1million that the repeat is a different length in susceptible individuals. These tracts are so variable in length, and can expand after transmission from the parent. It would fit all the epidemiology and everything very well. Having said that, I can't find anything on Pubmed that W.J. Walsh has published since 1997, but he may be a mainly clinical practice sort. It would be nice to see it in a legitimate journal, but it sounds very plausible. Sorry, not answering any of your questions of course, but it sounds quite interesting!

cheers tamum and davros. I would be interested in hearing why your friend ditched it davros. I'm not thinking of going to his clinic btw (ds1 + flying = nervous breakdown on my part).

Oh heck tamum I used to work on microsatellites (very unsuccessfully I must say- have you ever tried silver staining to look for differences in lenght- don't bother it doesn't work). Bit like Huntingdon's then. Go on tamum- put a grant application in I think he does have his recent work in for publication, but said that because it takes so long he wanted to release the results early, so hopefully there will be something peer reviewed soon.

BTW he's clinical director of this place in the states- so he may not be big into publishing.

tamum- if you want to set up a project you can have ds1's blood as a sample - go on......

Had a bit more of a search and I think we're probably going to go and see a nutrilink practitioner. The guy who set it up only lives 20 miles or so from here and its something we have been bearing in mind. I've let ds1's supplements slip recently (partly though getting confused about what was working etc, nd which additives are OK and which aren't (for example his zinc supplement contains soorbitol and I'm sure he has problems with sorbitol)) and he has his huge dark rings under his eyes back, so it would be a good time to see someone with a clean slate. They seem well aware of the metallothionein problem- and mention it as a problem area on their website, so think we'll try them.

I've emailed the guy, will let you know how we get on....

Good timing!

DS1 found a big box of biscuits yesterday (we don't usually have them). He definitely had some as he had chocolate in his mouth, just not sure if he had crumbs or an entire biscuit.

And today? Headbutting the door- really hard. He hasn't done that since the peanut butter fiasco. Whatever else gluten does to him it certainly plays havoc with his pain receptors (suppose it would if its having an opiate like effect). Usually when he's cross he hits himself on his chin, but not usually hard. Today the door came off his toy washing machine and he just launched himself at the nearby room door- hard enough to bruise.

I know its not useful for everyone but it's reminded me that diet seems to have a big effect on him (as I said yesetrday I've let supplements etc slip recently). So definitely going to go for nutrilink and get all the tests done etc etc.

We've started with nutrilink

Should get first test kit soon. (for SIg A function- whatever that is- it's to do with the mucosal barrier of the gut I think).

Will let you know how it goes.

Good luck!

Last week I finally saw my friend who went to Walsh's clinic. However, we spent most of the time gossiping so I just got a very quick, one sentence from her. She said about the clinic that she thinks the testing is very good but the interpretation is not. About the metallothionein thing, she thinks the theory is good but not the treatment. At least I think that's what she said! I have emailed her friend who she went to the Clinic with who I have met once so hope to get more info from her.

Thanks davros. That kind of makes sense. if dodgy MT buggers up your ability to excrete mercury it'll take more than balancing zn/cu ratios to restore normality Would be very interested in anything else you hear.