MMR Booster ???

[Mytwopenceworth]

My kids had the separate jabs as i was worried about the possible link reported between the mmr and autism as it turned out, they are both autistic anyway!

the gp has said that the boys need their boosters and that the seperate ones are not available any more (unless we travel to france, which we couldnt afford!) so they should have the mmr booster and he said --

"I don't believe there is a link between the mmr and autism, but even if there was you might as well let your children have the booster because (here he laughed a little, a 'chorkle'!) its not as though it could make them any more autistic, and it will ensure their protection"

so since i withheld the mmr pointlessly should i just let them have the booster? i felt ever so upset when he said it couldnt make them any more autistic (i dont know why that upset me, it just seemed so cruel) but i guess he's right. Is he?

I don't believe there is a link between MMR and autism. I do wonder if the MMR or measles vaccine can make bring out preexisting autism earlier or make it more apparent and that is why some parents notice regression after the MMR i.e the child would have ASD anyway but maybe not have developed it so early or have it less severely. I am happy with the research disproving a causal link but I don't think any of the MMR studies have looked at whether MMR can worsen preexiting autism.

Bearing this in mind I've done a lot of soul searching about what to do about the MMR. DS1 had it, he has developmental delay beforehand and it made absolutely no difference to him. However I'm not sure whether I want to give him the booster if he doesn't need it. 90% of children are protected after the first jab so chances are he won't need it. He needs a blood test anyway in a few months time so will see if I can get his levels checked then and decide after. DS2 (?NT) will be having his primary MMR but I'm delaying it until now as I wanted him to be over 18mths and free from winter coughs and colds. Measles and mumps is on the increase locally so am keen for him to be vaccinated soon. It's such a horrible decision as whatever you do there are implications

I think it's a bit Daily Mail to say that GPs are pushing MMR to get cash bonuses. Most doctors give it because they genuinely believe it is safe not because they see pound signs in front of their eyes. A lot of older doctors worked in the times when the MMR diseases especially measles were more common and saw the dreadful consequences of complications. I think there are issues with the safety of single jabs. AFAIK there have been no studies showing that single measles is any safer in terms of IBD and ASD than with the combination jab, it's just presumed so. The clinic locally that was offering single jabs privately has put that on hold as they can't guarantee the safety of the manufacture of the vaccines.

Liz x

Daily Mail?
Don't really get that but then i never get comments about what Newspapers people read, it's the truth though isn't it?
They do get bonuses for vaccinating a certain ammount of children. Whether or not this influences their advice is hard to say, hopefully not good G.P's anyway, but it's the truth.
I just feel if you were extremely worried and looking evrywhere for unbaised advice then the fact that the Surgeru gets bonuses for vaccines is a little off putting. (to me anyway)

\link{http://www.vaccinetruth.org/page_28.htm\link}

i'm never going to get my house clean at this rate!

do you know how to use google socci? of you go then! i've read the research so i don't need to spend half my day searching for it again. i did all this research before deciding to give my dd the mmr. it's out there somewhere if you can wade through all the useless hits you'll get to find it. try going through 'polio eradication' or something as it's the same principal. it's been pretty effective with small pox, so the research must be sound.

MTPW - I do know someone whose son regressed after the first MMR (like OJ's) then regressed again after his booster.

I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

Oh Eve bog off.

BTW - Andy Wakefield now believes that the first hit can bethimkerosal followed by MMR (or other live virus), expat- you might like to read his latest stuff it owuld probably interest you- he;s working closely with the thimerosal guys these days.

OK OK I shouldn't have said bog off- but can I just pint out that this is a thread on SN that has several people contributing who vbelieve their children to have been vaccine damaged so maybe discussions wqpoud be better elsewhere- there was a thread yesterday that woud be suitable.

yeah yeah yeah I know we're not alowed to be exclusive.

sounds like a mild case the lockets- best way I guess- lifelong immunity and all that.

Eve - lockets is right we've all done an awful lot of research. I'd recommend you read Hornig's 94 paper, then search for Walsh and metallothionein and then read Wakefield's 2005 presentation to um- can't remember the name but can find the conference online, to get an idea of the sorts of issues.

My biggest responsibility is to ds2 and ds3- not Johnny down the road.

You are not talking to a bunch of lentil weavers here, you are talking to people who did what they were told, who had their children vaccinated- and now believe that those children paid the price. Not wanting it to happen again, or not wanting to make a bad situation worse is being responsible, not irresponsible.

Currently 6 people are in intensive care due to a drug reaction. Why is it so hard for people to accept that some people that any drug including vaccines can cause adverse reactions. Especially those with a neurotoxin (yes I know MMR didn;t have that- but still play part of the bigger picture of MMR damage apparently). Or why is it so hard to accept that if live meases can be so dangerous, that an attenuated form can't - to a small vunerable subgroup.

I'm off- I only checked into SN to say helo today- had had enough of the NT world in RL. Am off again.

Lockets hope your dd is better soon.

argh... the MMR debate.

Whilst I want to run for the hills and hide in a cave whilst a mini battle of opinions rages in the valleys below, I'll chip in my two penneth worth :)

As illnesses, mumps measles and rubella are often quite mild, I certainly recovered from all 3 without any major setbacks. And was kept wel away from pregnant ladies, so's as not to cause any complications for mother or baby..

Though cases can be severe, people can beleft, blind, deaf, sterile or in rare cases, they can die.

You can't get single vaccines on teh NHS.
Not everyone can afford single javs privatley, esp when at times you have to travel to france for them. So your left with teh decision

to immunise or to not immunise.

A lot of people are adamant mmr caused tehir childs autism, scienific eveidence suggests otherwise, but could it all be a conspiracy.. are Gps forcing mmr on us becuase it earns thema bonus? Or are parents getting hysterical over a media induced panic. Can these parents prove mmr causes their chids autism, or was it coincidental that after teh fist jab [15-18 months] their child started to display the signs and symptoms of autism...

All those questions raged through my head whilst I decided to mmr or not...

in hte end we got it down to teh two worst case scenarios:

have the vaccine - child becomes autistic

don't vaccinate child develops seere complications and dies..

both my kids have had mmr, I have one gifted 5 year old boy, and one wonderfully bright in his own way 3 year old who, yes has autism.
And no I wans't concerned about his social interaction and imagination before he was 15 months old, but who is?

no digs at anyone, no trying to co erce peopel to see it my way

just a point of view

everyone does what they think is best and has the right to tehir own opinion.

Bloody hell, just caught up with this. Mytwopenceworth, at your GP. The point is, yes, they have a diagnosis of autism but it's not something set in stone that doesn't change or evolve or, sadly, regress. MY DD is due her MMR booster too and I'm losing sleep over it. OK, so she's already SEVERELY AUTISTIC so what's the harm? But I worry that she's very sensitive and that it may overload an already overloaded immune system. My question is, is the booster a different strength? And if not, why can't we just go down the separate jabs route? (as I have with DS)?
And Eve, just think about who you are 'talking' to before you give us your opinion

Eve - I am so shocked at your comments and your obvious ignorance.

Thin very hard before posting on such a sensitive subject. I for one have found your posts extremely offensive.

I always dismissed the research that showed a link between mmr and autism as there seemed to be so much more research that countered it but I have to admit that these days I am more sceptical. So much research is carried out using government funding or funded either directly by pharmaceutical companies or indirectly by them. Its hard to have complete faith in studies which are funded by people with a very definate financial agenda regarding the outcome of that research. I believe most doctors offer the mmr in the belief that it is the best option and also the only one available on the NHS but I do think the lack of choice is due more to financial considerations for the government rather than health reasons. Shutting down mental institutions 20 years ago was about cutting costs not about patient care - care in the community was a joke and virtually non existent. At the moment they seem to be determined to shut down special schools and place SN children in mainstream regardless of whether that is the best option for either the SN children or the NT children already in mainstream. Both my children had both mmr jabs and at the time I had no concerns. DS problems started after his second jab and tbh I think this was probably just a coincidence of timing but we'll never know. His problems are 'mild' compared to many with ASD but its scary to think that if he hadn't had the jab he would be ok.

jakb - 95% of children don't need the booster (maybe slighty less)- at least they don't need it at pre-school age- they may in their teens (when they don't give on in the UK- durr- they do in the US). It's not a booster in the sense of the dtp booster you get at pre-school- it's to give protection to those who didn't develop it after their first jab (they give the first one a bit early imo to guarantee protection- maternal antibodies can mess up developing immunity). You could give singles if you wished. You could also get your dd's antibody levels checked. Not sure if you've had a blood test with her- but ds1 had one to check for Frag X and the hospital were really excellent. I thought he'd be untestable, but they just held him down, no silly stresing him by doing that ridiculous talkimg in a baby voice that drs do to all kids completely not taking on board that they're severely autistic, haven't got a clue what ius being said to them, and just need you to get on with it (gosh sorry off an a tangent), and anyway they just get on with it.

So you could do that- no point giving a jab that's not needed if your child is developmentally vulnerable (which kind of sums up my attitude about jabs for ds2 and ds3 tbh).

Actually I don't get Eve's 1st post - if the parents had been responsible and had their kiud jabbed, and jabs are so great and work so well, why on earth would the child die?

I got boosters as a teen in the US, jimjams. I had them at age 17 and 18 before going to university, where kids living in dorms and not looking after themselves pick up all kinds of nasties. I had no idea it was different here.

well yes - that would be the sensible way to do it expat. (same reason I can see the sense in giving men C to university students). Could be the reason that there has been a mumps outbreak recently, and guess what- lots of university students were affected. I really would have more confidence in the vaccination schedule if some of it actually made sense in terms of giving these things when they're actually needed.

My friend rang a radio 4 discussion about MMR several years ago and said the problem with vaccinating babies was that you would then have to keep giving boosters for the rest of that child's life, because you were removing the opportunity to get the diseases at the safest time (ie pre-puberty). They pro jabbing representitive agreed with him- that that was true and could be a concern to some.

Last year, several students in our department got mumps. Some were first years, so they'd have been born in 1986-87. Out of curiosity, I asked if they'd been vaccinated as infants and young children. Almost all had!

Man, that's shocking!

GPs aren't allowed to give singles, that's the beginning and end of it as far as they are concerned. My GP has always been fantastically supportive and respectful, unlike that utter arse MTW has to see
I don't think its true that Andy Wakefield's research has been trashed, he actually worked with the children on the study and the Dr in Dublin (can't remember his name) found the same results of the measles in the spinal fluid. Other studies have either not set out to answer that question or have been reviews of other studies.
Having said all that, I don't think for one minute that MMR or other vaccines damaged my DS and, at the risk of upsetting others, I have come across a lot of parents over the years who are adamant that their child was vaccine damaged but who may not be correct. However, I have also come across many, many parents whose children regressed, some following MMR and some following baby jabs or viruses or illnesses.

Apparently there have always been regressive cases of autism, that is not in dispute at all among the ASD professionals, but the causes are so far a mystery. The thinking used to be that autism has 2 subgroups, progressive (from birth) and regressive (emerged at a later date) but NOW the thinking is that its probably a much larger number of subgroups and that a genetic predisposition can be triggered by possibly quite a number of things. Look \link{http://www.child-neuro.org.uk/content/publish/news/article_563.shtml\here} David Amaral opened the NAS conference last autumn talking about this project. The NAS is associated with all the well known and highly regarded professionals and thinkers in ASD, many of whom are very establishment, yet there he was and warmly welcomed too!
Oh, I should say that I'm CERTAIN that you can get the blood test (does it test for titres?) and single booster. I think the clinic where we took DD for singles, The Holborn Medical Centre (google) and you could look at Jabs (sorry, I only have one MN link in me at this time of night!). I'm not prepared to take any risk with DD as far as autism goes but, in view of the fact it probably didn't affect DS, I'm not prepared to leave her unimunised. I would in a second if I thought it had affected him though.
The figures quoted for MMR take up are incorrect anyway as they ignore all of us who have given singles....

Good point about the responsible parents' kids in Eve's post Jimjams. Yes according to her they should be totally safe.

I didn't actuallyu realise that this was in the Special Needs section as i usually flick Active Conversations!

The thing that frustrates me most about the MMR debate is not even whether the MMR causes autism but that there is no good evidence to suggest that if it does, single vaccines would be any better. IMO there is absolutely no link between MMR and autism but even if there was, what evidence is there that a single vaccine is safer? It is all speculation and hypothesis.

There said my bit and not going to get drawn in any further ...she says. I agree Mytwopenceworth that your GP was very insensitive in the way he presented the case for giving the injections to you and I would have been upset too.

ah Davros voice of reason :o

My view really would agree with that- there are many routes to autism. I do think that there is a genetic predisposition that can be triggered. I do think that ds1 was triggered mainly because there is absolutely no autism in our family (and the extended family is huge) but shed loads of autoimmune conditions.

I suspect that thimerosal played a role (or could have), I also suspect that eating mercury in fish and dental work I had done may have played a role. I aslo suspect antibiotics and the eczema herpeticum that ds1 had (following which he regressed). Now whether it was the specific combination of factors, or whether it was down to one thing I don't know. My aim has been to avoid all potential triggers. So ds3 has yet to eat tuna, is yet to have an antibiotic (ds1 by ds3's age had had in the region of 10 courses) and will avoid jabs unless I think we're in a particular risk group. All I know for sure is that genetically ds2 and ds3 are likely to be vulnerable so I'll do my best to avoid any potential trigger- particularly whilst they're still developing.

PS- some good news- ds3 pretended a calculator was a phone today :) I'm beginning to exhale cautiously about him.