Double MMR jab

[ThomCat]

Did you hear that on the news today - a little boy is being 'tested' for autism after being given the MMR jab twice. When he received the 2nd dose his mother says he started acting differently. That all the news bulletin said.

just had to come back on here to see what people had added! I think i could research forever and still beat myself up over the decisions i've made. At the end of the day i think we should all do what we think best, without guilt, be that MMR, single jabs or none at all, we all do what WE think best at that time!. One of the best arguments i've ever heard is Jimjams saying if she took her kids to a country where a certain didease was rife then she'd have her kids immunised, as the risks would be higher not to! That kind of put it in perspective for me and we had a debate recently with family staying over from abroad and when i told him her views.............he had nothing more to add

Why is Tony Blair so keen to avoid offering parents single vaccinations? Is it because he believes it is the safest option? This article seems to suggest that labour has compromised its ability to be objective towards the supply of vaccinations (posted by Naomi's d/h):

www.bnn-online.co.uk/comments_display.asp?HeadlineID=28553&Year=2002

N.B this company also supplies mmr to the nhs

My son has an immunedeficiency and his doctor has advised that he should have the mmr (even though it may not leave him properly immune)because if he caught measles it could be really serious for him. It's left me in a dilemma. I can understand how it can be upsetting for parents of children who can't be vaccinated as they would obviously wish all the others had had it but it is a very difficult and worrying descision to make. We just can't win, i mean a child could die from measles and pass it around or get autism from the jab....what a world!

RexandBen - swithering about getting dd vaccinated with the MMR. She's had everything else and seems OK. ds has ASD and the jab at 21 months but I don't think it affected him, but who knows?? Any thoughts?

Same as you Eulalia, I'm not sure I WON'T give MMR to the baby even though our son is ASD. I'd like her to have it ideally but....... I too don't think my son was affected by it. I have heard the idea a lot more recently that MMR and finding measles is really a very small number of ASD kids but the earlier jabs are more to worry about. We've done those (thimerosil-free) so should I worry about MMR? I'll decide some time later on

jimjams, what do you think about AW's research being based on affected children? (ie not a random, population-based study)

Eulalia, I personally would not give MMR to your dd but would definitely get the separate jabs done. I say this because although your dd is fine now she still may have the genetic predisposition to having ASD. This may mean that her system may not tolerate the triple jab giving her a chance of many different problems. This risk may be small but it is still there. I dont think it is worth the risk.

I am in the exact same situation at the moment with my 12 month old. Therefore he will be having the the separate jabs.

Linzoid

sympathies- tricky decision. If I was in your shoes this is the analysis I would do (I have no idea what I would decide- but this is what I wuld be weighing up).

1. Your ds is more likely to have complications following either nautral M, M or R
2. He is also more likely to have complicaitons following the jab (I don't mean autism type complications I mean things like encephalitis, or arthritis from the rubella bit).
3. If you do jab then you are definitely exposing him to M M and R (albeit in an attenuated form)
4. If you don;t jab and he is exposed to measles he will catch it (as measles is so infectious). he may well catch mumps and rubella if exposed as well.
5. The absolute best outcome for him woiuld be to not jab and for him to not come into contact with the diseases - so then I would have to weigh up how likely that is for each disease.
6. If he was to come into contact with the diseases then he would be better being jabbed (assuming they have worked).

And round and round. I suspect if I was in your shoes (although I have learned that none of us really know what we would do until we are in those shoes) I would protect against measles, and mumps and possibly rubella but via single jabs with at least 3 months inbetween. I would also look into getting varivax (chickenpox) as children with immune deficiencies are more likely to get encephalitis from chickenpox (than Joe average kid) and your son will almost certianly be in contact with chickenpox at some stage.

Many sympathies - very hard decision.

bundle- depends what you mean. AW had nothing to do with MMR research. He was (and still is everywhere except here) a very well respected gastroenterologist. He was approached by parents of children who appeared to become autistic following the MMR jab. This also conincided with the start of some quite severe debilitating gastrointestinal symptoms- hence his involvement. When he examined the children he found they had enterocolitis that was unlike previous entercolitis he had encountered. He has since isolated vaccine strain measles virus from the guts (and now spinal fluid) of these children. GIven his findings he apporached the govt with his concerns that there could be a link between MMR and the development of autism and autistic enterocolitis in these children. The govt ignored him and so he went public and suggested that whilst further research was carried out single jabs should be given. For which he was hounded out of the UK.

Certainly it would be better if sample sizes were bigger, certainly it would be good if control groups were used- non autistic children with no gut symptoms, non-autistic children with gut symptoms, autistic children who did not receive the MMR etc. The trouble is these procedures are invasive so will never be done on a huge scale (would I allow my autistic single jabbed ds1 to be investigated invasively purely for research?- absolutely not).

The population studies that have been caried out are next to useless for answering the most important question- are a small number of children at risk? All they show is that MMR is safe for the majority of children- well any dingbat knows that.

This thread : www.mumsnet.com/Talk?topicid=138&threadid=11513&stamp=030930145145

has a link to a paper explaining what the MMR studies so far tell us - and why AW result's do not prove a link- but also why they do suggest more research is needed.

It also has a link to a radio show- mainly abut thimerosil- but with some very interesting comments about the British govt's treatment of AW. All very conspiracy theory- but you have to ask yourself if there isn't a problem why isn't work going ahead to confirm this.

sorry didn't make myself clear- what I meant by "AW had nothing to do with MMR.." is that his research didn't set out to prove a problem with MMR, or even to examine it - he was just examining chidren who had been brought to him by their parents.

I always find this interesting. The govt denies that autistic enteroolitis exists and yet in the All part paliamentary group mabifesto for autis it specifically mentions the importance of this condition being recognised and treatment being available (a lot fo expertise left the country when AW left).

I know sod Michael portillo as a single mum how about Tony Blair as a parent of an autistic kid for a week.

I LOVE that idea JimJams! I think you should pitch it to Channel 4! (except for the poor child involved!!! I suppose he'd have to come and live with you for the week!)

I am interested in this thread because a year ago, I thought the same as Miranda2. I thought the whole MMR debate was a middle-class colour-supplement hoo ha, and my natural sense of collective responsiblity was underpinned by having two friends who lost hearing and sight respectively as a result of teenage measles. 6 weeks ago, I had my DS, 2 , vaccinated.

Then I read all the stuff on these threads. And although I read newspapers, have a basic understanding and interest in biology (grade A A level), I had never, in everything I have read, been made aware of the particular vulnerability of children with auto-immune conditions, early exposure to anti-biotics etc, and how this is more likely to tie in. It all make sense, and had I known all that before, I would have thought more than twice. My DS WAS exposed to IV anti-biotics as a new born (and THAT would have been avoided if the ante-natal/midwifery service had been more open with info...), and my family (including me) is riddled with auto-immune and atopic conditions.

The governments refusal to fund proper research into this has put another nail into the coffin in my relationship with Tony Blair. That's all they have to do: let's have the research, let's have the knowledge, and let's treat parents as grown-ups. I do not think the regular media have covered this in any detail, sticking to sensationalist simplistic explanations....Hurray for Mumsnet! I wonder whether the gvt advsors lurk, from time to time? They should!
Sorry to rant!

Strangely enough blu 4 years ago I thought the same as Miranda as well. Then I got past the pieces in the media and read the original research and then beagn to wonder why the dept of health was misleading us. Then found out ds1 was autistic and so became even more interested in the whole MMR issue.

Blu- this government wil ever treat parents as if they have their own minds. They don't treat anyone in that way. Tony Blair thinks, (or in his own mind knows) that he is absolutely 100% right on everything. He cannot imagine that someone elses viewpoint could possibly be correct.

There a nice bit of armchair psychology for a Monday morning.

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I have to say I find this idea that parents just hadn't noticed something was wrong with thier child totally ridiculousand extremely patronising. If you ask the majority of people with autistic children when they noticed something was wrong they will often say from birth "oh he always seemed different- used to just scream all the time". I knew from 17 months but looking back now there were signs before - he was always interested in ceilings, and always fascinated by lights. My son stopped talking following the measles jab but if you read previous posts you will see that I think the jab had little or nothing to do with it.

The people who's children were MMR damaged describe something very different. They had children who were pointing, who were normal in every way (and by about 15 months ds1 was doing a good job of blanking any children who came near him). They received their jab, they then screamed for so many days, often bowel symptoms start at the same time and then they regressed. The most watertight cases have a regression that occurred rapidly - very different form the slow regression demonstrated by my son.

If someone actually bothered to listen to these mothers they would hear stories that are so different to the normal pattern of development of an autistic child then it is even more obvious that something different has hapened to these children.

But then what they know they're only mothers after all. Please remember that mothers from hell (I'm sorry I mean mothers with special needs children) in the eyes of the services know nothing at all. Remember that according to the local CDC I haven't acceepted my child's autism at all- so well known is this fact that people I have never met seemt o think tis fine to tell my son's school that. If they can't even accept that simple fact and listen to what I am saying (that my son has additional speech problems as well as autism) then how on earth are these people going to listen to mothers who say that their children were damaged by a vaccination. Afetr all they;re just mother's so they obviously hadn't noticed that there was something wrong with their child.

I agree with your Monday Armchair Psychology, Jimjams, and am more depressed than ever! There are so many examples on MN of the gvts disregard for the lived intelligence of women and / or parents, and unfortunately I think it is in the interests of the gvt's current agenda to disempower women in every way possible. And they have the panting lap-dogs of the media at their feet. Not sure what can be done, unless there is an effective parliamentary lobbying mechanism in place.

Message withdrawn

You raise some very good points in your last post jimjams and this is something I have been thinking about over last few weeks (or years) No just to do with MMR but any clinical negligence cases. I have started to wonder whether we will ever get a diagnosis for our dd. We have been pretty sure since she was born that it was CP but have been told it couldnt possibly be because the CT scan was clear. The day after she was born(her delivery was very very traumatic) a male doctor came to see me when I was on my own to tell me the hospital wasnt negligent for our dd's badly managed birth - we had said nothing at this point. Now we have to have genetic counselling when maybe she has got cp but they will not admit it. Anyway if she does have a genetic disorder I will accept it but what if it leads us nowhere again will they ever diagnose cp? - I really dont think they ever would. The same with the mmr, it is all about money not families and children and health, just money.

The thing about the kids that Andrew Wakefield saw, and the small number of others out there like them, is that they have measles in their gut. Other children who clearly and severely regressed may have been affected by other things, thimerosil, organo-phosphates other environmental factors that could also be causing the increase in things like peanut allergy and other immune system disorders. I believe that Paul Shattock was planning to do some research on organo-phosphates. There are also theories about the similarity with Gulf War Syndrome (also non-existent!) Autism is lifelong and I believe that it IS a killer. I don't want to depress anyone, but there are many cases where ASD children have been run over, drowned, wandered off, injured or killed; even abandoned or killed by their parents who can't cope. OK, maybe it isn't physically harmful but it leads repeatedly to situations that are harmful. These are genuine stories that are collated by Adam Feinstein, to name one, who is also involved in AutismConnect. I had to stop getting Adam's magazine (Looking UP!) as it was too depressing.......

Twinkie-I was describing myself as a mother frm hell as that is how we are seen. I just feel that if I can't make myself understood (being very much a product of the system and with plenty of letters I can choose to use after my name as drs etc seem so keen on these) then how can anyone else. Nick Hornby has said the same thing- he can't seem to get through to anyone and he has lots on his favour - such as fame and connections. It wasn't a rant at you, just a rant at the establishment. Net time you watch a dr /health minister talk about the 18 months link analyse the language they use. The last person I saw was a GOSH dr who used phrases like "oh these mothers who think the MMR. etc etc". all said with a slght sideways glance and a know all half smile. It's effectively dismissing anything a mother says- just because she's a mother.

Blu- a group of parents have recenty got together to lobby parliament- the group is know as AIM- autism in mind. It's a slow process though (and tbh the group is more concerned about improving conditions for families coping with autism rather than lobbying for more MMR research- which I completely understand).

Agre totally Davros. Unfortunately I think there is an idea that dealing with autism is a bit like dealing with someone who's slightly eccentric. They don't seem to understand that severe autism destroys family life and makes it impossible to function as a family at all. I have heard some toe curling horrible stories since getting involved in the autism world.

And yes I know an autistic girl who drowned (in school- she was at an mld school- staff ratios were not high enough for autism).

And the gulf war link fascintates me.

And- finally I think the whole MMR thing is missing the point entirely. The best estimate is about 10% of autism cases are due to MMR- so why the huge rise? Some will be better diagnosis - so best to leave out AS and PDD (as they have done in California- and they have still been left with huge numbers) and then ask ourselves why the huge rise? We could maybe look at the epidemic proportions of type 1 diabetes as well (another autoimmune condition)? Sticking our heads in the sand and saying no of this exists is not the answer though. All I want is to know that someone is actually asking the questions.

Fio2- I'm shocked (but not surprised) by your story

sorry jimjams if I was being a bit self centred in my last post - didnt mean it too Its just all got me thinking and I am feeling alot more confident about my own knowledge now. The genetic nurse last week kept putting thoughts into my head about the birth too, and why would she?, she has nothing to gain from it. Like I said about my dural tap() and she said had they done it on purpose to cover up 'other' things.....I dont know!- really shocked me it has. 'They' have all made me feel like it has been my fault and I am feeling really angry right now. Will stop ranting now

sorry I am making no sense, I know

Not self centred at all fio- I would be screaming from the roof tops. I made a point ofreading my maternity notes with ds2- there was a whole page I entitled the imaginary conversation where the dr had written that she'd discussed such and such a risk with me and I had agreed to this - no such conversation had remotely taken place- buit if anyhing had gone wrong I would had been stuffed- according to the notes I'd agreed to it.

It sounds very dodgy. I know of a mother down here who's daughter had to be resussed (she's severely disabled following a major cock up by the maternity team- and she is in the process of suing the hospital)- during resuss 2 ribs were broken. Initially she wasn't told about it, and then when she enquired (a nurse told her) she was charged with child abuse and breaking them herself. In the end she had to threaten the consultant with legal action to make him withdraw the accusations.

Just coming back to this... anyone have a list of clinics who do single jabs of M, M&R(I doubt if there is anywhere near here (Aberdeen)) and is it very expensive?

i am probably going to use direct health 2000 unless someone advises me other wise on mumsnet!