Speech or language disorder?

[jenkins88]

Can anyone tell me what is the difference between a speech disorder and a language disorder?

DS has just had a SALT assessment but he wasn't co-operative so the SALT only got halfway through before our time was up. Everything is in a complete muddle at the moment. We have just moved so DS has to be transfered to our new area. The SALT couldn't tell us whether his next assessment would be at our old clinic or the new one, and didn't know when it would be. She just said 'someone will be in touch'.

He has been given a block of 6 group therapy sessions - Badgers Club (anyone's child been to this?). Although the SALT said that he would almost certainly require one to one therapy as well afterwards. I'm not adverse to this but the course doesn't seem to be aimed at DS's needs. It seems to be about learning colours and social skills, whereas I think my son's problems are more phonological.

Sorry for rambling. Would a language disorder mean that non verbal communication such as gesturing and engaging others would be impaired? Or does it refer to the way a sentance is constructed, rather than correct pronunciation, which would be speech?

TIA

We have been told that my Ds2 has disordered speech and probably disordered language. When they are talking about his speech they mean his speech sounds meaning he hasn't learned them in the right order and his intonation and speech patterns are strange. He is very difficult to understand if you are not used to his talking. But it doesn't refer at all to what he says just how he says it.

I think all the communication things including the way he constructs a sentence etc would come under language disorder. So in Ds2's case his expressive language is better than his receptive, he gets pronouns muddled up, he can get word order wrong and his non-verbal communication is poor.

HTH

jenkins88 - my ds1 had severe speech articulation problems, but no language problems. So his vocab was fine (excellent in fact), and he was speaking in long complicated sentences very early, which were unintelligible because he only had a limited range of sounds.

I don't know how old your ds is, but mine didn't really co-operate sufficiently with the SALT until he was about 4, and it wasn't until he was 5 when he finally got regular (weekly) SALT with someone who really clicked with him when he made progress.

Having such unclear speech so late has affected him in other ways, and his speech still sounds odd. But he did make massive improvements between 5 and 5.5, and never struggles to make himself understood now.

HTH

Hi Roisin Haven't seen u around in a while. Hope u r ok xxx

Hiya Blossomhill! Thanks for missing me. We had serious pc problems so have not been online at home, hence the enforced silence.

I've also lost all my email contacts, so if you still have mine, I'd love it if you could drop me a line so that I have your email should I need it.

Thanks for the replies.

DS is 3.7 yrs and has other developmental problems as well as communication. He's seeing a dev. paed. who has mentioned autism to us, but I don't feel that he will be diagnosed as autistic. The SALT was really gushing about how great his non verbal communication is, and said that he didn't strike her as autistic, although she wasn't in a position to say one way or another.

DS seems so frustrated lately. A year ago he was a happy, loving, secure child but now he is angry, bossy and often obsessive about things. I'm wondering if he is now aware of his problems and this is making him behave like this. He's a very friendly child and he hasn't stopped approaching people and interacting, but other people's reactions are not the same as they were. People obviously expect to be able to understand a 3.7 yr old and are a bit stunned when he speaks. Lately he doesn't try so hard to make himself understood like he used to. After a couple of attempts at saying something he now walks away or shouts.

Roisin - Perhaps DS is using sophisticated language but I just don't understand him. I don't really know. I mostly feel that his 'sentances' are full of fillers and pauses fitted around 1 or 2 keywords.

Sorry, don't know what I'm expecting to gain by waffling like this. I just need to say it and get it out of my system. DS is a total PITA at night and DP is asleep, so no-one to talk to.

Thanks for reading this

Jenkins

I do sympathise with you as I am in a similar position with my Ds2 (just 4y) who has very muddled up language and it is very difficult to know what is going on with it. Some of the professionals who have seen him think he has autistic traits others don't really agree. I think he may have but definitely part of the problem is that because his speech is very unclear people don't understand him and that puts him off talking to them. He often insists that we repeat what he has said as proof that we have understood him and he is very sensitive to any adult who tries to fob him off with a kind of "Did you?" answer when they haven't really understood.

He is also quite controlling of the conversation but again I think some of that is because his understanding is definitely behind his expressive language so he is scared that the conversation might go off into an area he doesn't understand. He feels safe talking about his favourite subjects.

It doesn't look like we will get any diagnosis for the time being and I feel quite strongly he is not on the autistic spectrum although he has some features. I don't know if this helps at all but I wanted you to know you are not the only one!

You mentioned your Ds has other developmental problems - what are they, if you don't mind me asking?

Hi Saker - thanks for your message

I suppose it makes sense that your DS2 will avoid talking to people if he can't make himself understood. Poor little man .

We don't really know what other problems DS has. The Dev. Paed. said that he has many autistic traits, which I agree with, but like you, I don't feel that he is autistic. He is generally delayed in all areas but not severely. He has poor concentration and his understanding is much lower than it should be, although I suppose it would be if he can't concentrate on anything.

It's interesting that your DS makes you repeat things back to him. DS also does this but I think it's more of a babyish game for him. He will make bizarre sounds and tell me to copy and he will not leave it until I repeat it exactly the way he wants it. He also does this with actions though. I have no idea why. At the moment DS definetly prefers people to do the 'Did you' response to him. I think it takes the pressure off him. I prefer it when people do this because otherwise they tend to look at me and say 'What did he just say?' Although thinking about it maybe his worlds don't even make sense to him, becuase surely he should want to be understood.

He's just learnt his colours and it's causing us a few unexpected problems. Instead of telling me he wants a car or drink he now says 'I want blue/green one'. It's so annoying when you're in a rush and don't have time to offer every single blue/green item in the flat.

What kind of therapy is your DS2 getting if you don't mind me asking?

We now get (though only recently) one session of speech therapy a week. Ds2 also has problems with motor skills with very dyspraxic type symptons and he has been seen and advised by occupational therapy and physio but gets no actual therapy from them. We have one session of music therapy and he has a one to one helper at preschool. I am pretty sure he has dyspraxia but I am not clear if his language problems are due to a language disorder on top of this. His speech sound problems are likely to be to do with his problems with co-ordination and muscle tone.

Ds2 also has poor concentration on some tasks and finds it really hard to sit and concentrate on games like lotto, partly because I don't think he really understands them.

Oh we also get an hour of portage every week. It would be worth getting portage if you can. When does your Ds start school?

I wondered about dyspraxia with DS, but both the SALT and Paed. have commented that his fine motor skills are not too bad. I think I read somewhere that children with dyspraxia often display autistic traits, but I might have got it wrong.

DS starts nursery in September. He was supposed to start in April but I delayed it because he wasn't ready. We only started potty training a couple of months ago because before then he couldn't pull his trousers up/down. The nursery staff are doing a home visit just before he starts so I'll tell them about his problems and hopefully he'll get some additional support.

How would I go about getting portage?

YOu can refer yourself to Portage or ask the paed to refer you. see here .

Yes I think you can autistic traits with dyspraxia or have both autism and dyspraxia together. I think they often overlap and I keep being told that Ds2 is a grey area with lots of bits of different things but not enough to make any one diagnosis.

We are trying to potty train Ds2 now. He can pull his trousers down but not up and it takes him a while to get on the potty so he needs quite a lot of help.

Impairment of motor skills is the main criterium for diagnosing dyspraxia but I don't think all motor skills are affected evenly.

Thanks for the link. It is available in my area so I'll give them a call tomorrow and see if they can help.

I received DS's SALT assessment notes in the post this morning and every area has a tick next to 'Area of need'. So much for me thinking his problems were just phonological

Good luck with the potty training. Although I thought DS was properly trained he's had umpteen accidents in the past few weeks. I've had to put a nappy on him today because we're down to his last pair of trousers.

Thanks for chatting. It's nice to know I'm not the only one in this situation.

Hi Jenkins

Well my dd has a language disorder and the reason this was dx is that her areas of learning in language are patchy. Some of her friends in the unit have speech disorders which is basically that the sounds they produce are distorted wheras with my dd it's what she actually says that is distorted.
Any more questions feel free to ask. My dd will be 6 next week. She also has a lot of auti traits too!

My DS sounds very like Sakers. He's 4.10 & still no dx. Dr thinks AS, therapists say Sensory probs & I think from what I've read maybe dyspraxia. Maybe all of the above! Anyway I remember around 3ish he went through a really tough phase, I think frustration from knowing we should understand him but just couldn't, & I think that frustration in kids with languade probs always leads to other "strange" easy to class as AS behaviour. Sorry but only advice is lots,& lots, & lots of patience. It is a phase altho' a really tough one, I know

Wads

it's a relief (IYKWIM) to know there's another child like mine out there as no-one seems to be able to make sense of him and everyone keeps saying they haven't seen anything like it before. Sometimes I just think he has really bad dyspraxia which affects everything, other times I think he must have other things on top of that. What are you doing about school?

My Ds2 is an August birthday (I guess yours is similar) and so should be starting in Sept but we have got permission to hold him back a year. However we have hopefully got a place for him in an infant assessment unit from feb 2005.

Hi Saker
We actually live in Portugal and my DS starts a new pre-school class in September with a school support who was with him last yaer at his creche. She is great & we were so lucky to keep her for this year as usually in Portugal teachers can get moved every single year. I'm sure like me every time you look at symptons of a dx you think "he has that, maybe it's this?" but then after a week or so find some other info on the net which completely changes your mind! As for dx's I can see that it really depends on the professional's opinion when kids like ours really don't fit exactly. Our Dr (who I hate) 1st said just a developmental delay, 2nd maybe ASD, 3rd maybe AS & 4th consult was back to a don't know wait & see attitude. Not so bothered about a dx now as long as DS gets support he needs which so far, so good altho' still no speech therapy as he cannot really concentrate or follow specific directions that well. Has to sort out his global planning 1st I think b4 he gets to fine motor, tongue, lips. Am always looking for mums with similar kids here on mumsnet so glad to find you!

Jenkins we are in a similar position. Although my ds does actually have pretty good speech. We have been told he has complicated problems and that delay is no longer a correct term but no one is able to give a specific dx.
Have just been told by SALT that her gut feeling is not language disorder but that he has problems with langauge processing, attention and listening skills. He also has many asd traits but is too social for an asd dx.

Not much help but wanted you to know that I am also in same boat, although reading posts below there are quite a few of us.

I have come to live with not having a dx but it does make it harder to meet people in a similar boat because you can't join any groups etc. So it's nice to make contact with everyone here. Maddiemo "langauge processing, attention and listening skills" is also commonly listed among Ds2's major problems. His speech can get very muddled but he can talk in longish sentences which sometimes make perfect sense. He understands less though I am sure. Disordered language has been talked about although again not diagnosed. I don't have great confidence in our SALT but hoping to get a better one if he gets the place in Feb in the unit.

Wads, it must be hard being in a different country - is your son bilingual on top of it all?

In Speech therapy we do a lot of listening and attention type games like sound lotto, naming or picking out pictures of things, picture lotto etc. I would have thought you could try some of these to help your son's concentration and listening.

Saker. My ds speech is a long way ahead of his understanding. His understanding is at a two word level but is uneven and not developing as normal.
Although we are on lots of waiting lists we keep being told that he is too able to access help

Maddiemo - that just doesn't make sense. Children like your ds (who sounds similar to dd)

It is early intervention that really helps later on. Very on your behalf!

I know BH. It all comes down to money and my LEA and PCT seem very unwilling to part with it.
Both ds3 and ds4 teachers have told me they feel each child would benefit from private SALT but I can't afford it for both of them.

it's so infuriating isn't it. We have only just begun salt (3 sessions so far) but the SALT isn't great. She doesn't plan anything in advance so she will get out a game like lotto which is for four players and play it with Ds2 with all the pictures for the missing two cards included. So not surprisingly he gets confused because he is turning up pictures that don't match anything. Plus it takes about 3 times as long so he is well bored by halfway through (as am I ).

We tried a private SALT who was recommended but she never called back to arrange the promised therapy and after about 4 attempts I gave up with her.

Then we went to the Dyscovery Centre in Cardiff who were very helpful but too far away to go much beyond an assessment and advice.

Maddiemo

I find the poor receptive language more scary than problems with expressive language. It's much harder to know what to do about it.

Saker Agree that receptive problems are hard to deal with. Also find that because ds can speak people think he is fine. He does understand simple instructions but is lost with anything more complex.
Will your ds need a statement to get a unit place? My 6 year old is in a unit, he started off there at 3 without a statement but got one to enable him to stay from reception age.