Page 6 | Is this an illegal/informal exclusion?

Pressthespacebar · 2025-05-13T06:42:15+00:00

My son is in reception and has been put on a reduced timetable (9-12) since the second half of the spring term, following an exclusion of 4 days. The head basically said to me that unless he went on a reduced timetable the risk of him being permanently excluded is higher. My son has a learning delay and they said developmentally he's around 2 in some areas, they also say he probably has ADHD and PDA is something that has been mentioned recently. Ehcp has just been sent off for and appointment at the doctor's is booked so we can go down the right to choose pathway. I assumed the reduced timetable would be temporary but the school have not contacted me to increase his hours and the last couple of weeks I've been trying to get a meeting sorted they keep coming up with excuses and saying they'll get back to me. Im aware my son is a handful but he is entitled to a full time education. Has anyone else been through this and what happened?

Nominative · 13/05/2025 10:56

Mrsttcno1 · 13/05/2025 09:56

It’s really naive to see these as the only options to be honest.

OP can push for him to go back full time, the support isn’t in place as there is no EHCP clearly stating needs & allowing for funding to facilitate those needs, meaning that he’ll go back and potentially on week 2 have another “bad afternoon” resulting in physically damaging the school property AND also physically harming a teacher and this time they just permanently exclude. Is that genuinely what you think is it the best interest of the child?

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It really is not the case that schools can get away with providing no support while there is no EHCP. They still have the duty to use their best endeavours to meet SEN. The DfE guidance on exclusions is very clear about all the steps schools have to take for children with SEN before they go to permanent exclusion. This school should be seeking urgent advice and funding to ensure that OP's child is supported so that he doesn't become overwhelmed and dysregulated, and therefore doesn't reach meltdown point; also so that they can manage meltdowns if they happen. If they do that, there is no reason to believe there will inevitably be a repetition.

Magnesiumsuppliments · 13/05/2025 10:57

Mrsttcno1 · 13/05/2025 10:55

The school have lots of obligations, to lots of people. They have a duty to ensure that all pupils and staff are safe at school. They would be incredibly negligent to take this child back next week and the next cabinet he pulls down land on & hospitalise or kill other pupils, or the next person he physically attacks isn’t an adult but a child who is seriously injured. His education does not trump the rights of potentially hundreds of other people’s right to be safe when they are in that building every day.

One there is a diagnosis in place & an EHCP the school has options, they can say they can’t meet need so OP can find one that can or they can apply for additional funding to provide a 121 etc.

Considering OP has said this behaviour is just as bad at home I’m not sure how anyone can blame the school here, they have hundreds of children to look after.

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The school have legal options now. An EHCP is not some magic cure. They need to use their legal options now.

Fusedspur · 13/05/2025 10:58

1SillySossij · 13/05/2025 10:49

And the child behaves very badly at home too, so I don't think you can pin this on the school

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No, you can almost certainly “pin” it on his neurological makeup. 🤔

Nominative · 13/05/2025 11:00

NeverDropYourMooncup · 13/05/2025 09:58

It's not for their convenience - it's for his safety as well, as had he pulled that cabinet down on himself or if the trophy cabinet is made of glass, smashed that or pulled it over/climbed on it, he could have been seriously injured or killed.

The part time timetable is providing independent evidence of need, particularly if his behaviour is still challenging despite the reduced hours and will be equally useful for his medical referral to avoid it being rejected as a parenting issue; did you have to wait for his 5th birthday before even starting the referral request (and if not, why have you only got as far as making an appointment at the GP now?).

I can see how having him at school full time would give you more much needed respite from his behaviour at home, but insisting that he returns full time would not be in his best interests at this point, especially when there's clearly evidenced concern for his safety and that of the other children and staff - and despite the Law, there is no obligation for schools to put children and adults at risk of serious injury from a child's behaviour. If he were to be permanently excluded, you'd then be at the mercy of the Local Authority's decisions (or lack of decision), which the school knows could mean no school place or learning at all.

Have you been contacted about a Team Around the Family/Early Support meeting yet?

Any evidence they need to get from the part time timetable should have been gathered by the end of last term. Dragging it on for a full term with no end point cannot be justified in this way. The law is very clear on the fact that such methods should be kept to a minimum time. If the school was really concerned about safety, it wouldn't have this child in school at all; it seems very clear that this is more a matter of convenience to them than anything else.

If OP's child were to be excluded, the LA would have an enforceable legal obligation to have him in full time education within six days, so goodness knows where you get the claim that this could mean no education at all.

Magnesiumsuppliments · 13/05/2025 11:00

Fusedspur · 13/05/2025 10:58

No, you can almost certainly “pin” it on his neurological makeup. 🤔

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Ok so you don't believe the DCs behaviour is linked to the disability. Are you saying that badly behaved kids shouldn't be entitled to a full time education. That they should be illegally excluded rather than following legal processes that provide them with a suitable full time education?

Ablondiebutagoody · 13/05/2025 11:01

Magnesiumsuppliments · 13/05/2025 10:32

My child endangered himself plenty in reception yes, because the school did not manage his behaviour well. He was an inconvenience that needed to be there as little as possible. His reception teacher was the school SEN lead. Most of his exclusions happened due to behaviour whilst lining up for dinner. He hasn't had any dangerous incidents at his new school. He did not learn to read in reception as the school didn’t have time for him, which has had a huge knock on effect on his education as he is playing catch up.

My point is, little adjustments and an adjustment of mindset within the school can make a huge difference for all the pupils. If the teacher recognised he was hungry and made adjustments based on that, rather than putting him on a reduced timetable everyone would have benefitted. Rather than a constant cycle of poor behaviour from reception DC that are illegally excluded that then moved onto other schools.

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I think that it is very easy for parents to blame the school but a little adjustment here, something else there, monitoring x,y, and z, before you know it you have 30 odd kids needing little adjustments and a teacher dealing with all that rather than their teaching. Pretty much Impossible to manage in a mainstream school where the kids need to learn to adjust to the school system, line up sensibly, don't do dangerous stuff etc. Otherwise its chaos.

Nominative · 13/05/2025 11:01

Mrsttcno1 · 13/05/2025 09:59

School are also going to be very easily able to evidence why he is part time, not only has he posed a risk to himself but he has also physically harmed a teacher. Open & shut case.

So do you believe that a child can be in part time education indefinitely without reviews based on one incident? You could not be more mistaken. If there is an open and shut case against anyone, it is the case against the school.

Magnesiumsuppliments · 13/05/2025 11:03

Ablondiebutagoody · 13/05/2025 11:01

I think that it is very easy for parents to blame the school but a little adjustment here, something else there, monitoring x,y, and z, before you know it you have 30 odd kids needing little adjustments and a teacher dealing with all that rather than their teaching. Pretty much Impossible to manage in a mainstream school where the kids need to learn to adjust to the school system, line up sensibly, don't do dangerous stuff etc. Otherwise its chaos.

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My sons new school have lots of disabled DC on role. Their outcomes for everyone are much better. Similar sized schools, 5 miles apart, same LA.

Nominative · 13/05/2025 11:05

TopographicalTime · 13/05/2025 10:08

But you say he's similar at home and you can't manage him - why would you magically expect a mainstream school with far fewer adults per child to both manage his behaviour and teach him plus another 20+ kids when you can't manage childcare for him plus siblings?

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It's not OP expecting this, it's a simple matter of the law and the school's job. Any school that claims to be unable to manage SEN should not be open. The school has the advantage of being able to apply for extra funding and professional advice, to say nothing of training.

Nominative · 13/05/2025 11:09

Mrsttcno1 · 13/05/2025 10:09

It is for DC benefit- that trophy cabinet he pulled over could have killed him. There is still no EHCP in place, there is still no extra funding or staff, the process is ongoing as OP has said and so there IS something going on.

On top of which they can easily state concerns for the safety of himself & others in their reasoning, he could have killed himself and he did physically attack another adult.

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A school that has a cabinet that could be pulled over by a 5 year old and kill a child is a school that hasn't done an adequate H&S risk assessment. In fact it doesn't appear that it was the trophy cabinet that OP's child pulled but another unit.

You have no idea what extra funding or staff is available to this school. It will be receiving a notional £6K a year for each child with SEN. Most LAs do have a process for applying for extra funding, and the school will have at least some support staff for children without EHCPs. Unless the school is taking steps to access all the support available, it cannot claim based on one incident that this is necessary for safety purposes - particularly as they are having the child in school part time.

Nominative · 13/05/2025 11:12

NeverDropYourMooncup · 13/05/2025 10:09

The school can't be expected to spend 32.5 hours a week trying to make sure he doesn't escape or try to strangle any one of sixty-plus four and five year olds or anybody in other year groups that are smaller than him, though.

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Exaggerating and demonising a disabled small child in this way is really disgraceful. Clearly they don't think this is a risk, otherwise they wouldn't have OP's child in at all. They could and should have applied for support long ago so that they could ensure that OP's child and others are kept safe.

Original poster

Pressthespacebar · 13/05/2025 11:14

Leftoverssandwich · 13/05/2025 10:23

OP, you're getting some brilliant advice here already but I'd suggest asking for this thread to be moved over to SEN as AIBU is really not the most supportive place.

I've been where you are. My child was illegally excluded twice for violent meltdowns when he was in year 1. He ended up spending his time in school with a 1:1 in the staff room and an ipad accessing zero education. He's 12 today, and thriving in a specialist unit, and no one who knows him now can believe he was like that. Your son needs the right support and hopefully the EHCP will provide that, and you will see an improvement at home as well. We had regular massive meltdowns at home when school was challenging, and now we have a happy son who loves life, and it was apparent very, very quickly that school stress had been manifesting with us too (and we have learned a lot about demand avoidance along the way - please look up PDA and see if it resonates).

I write all the above knowing that finding the right place can be HUGELY challenging and we were so very lucky. It's wrong that so many children are being let down like this, and the impact on the adults and children around them is real too. The people on the SEN board have so much advice and support to give about every part of the process ahead of you though, which is invaluable.

Thankyou, your post has given me hope it's not always going to be like this.

It's really hit home recently that he genuinely has disabilities, I've always known but everyone used to say no he's just got a lot of energy or he'll catch up when he's ready, all the usual stuff, but now all these people are involved and saying I'm right it's validating but overwhelming too.

OP posts:

Nominative · 13/05/2025 11:15

cabbageking · 13/05/2025 10:11

A reduced timetable is not an exclusion.

We use them when it is in the best interests of the child.
If they are struggling to cope in some situations.
If they are overwhelmed.
Can't manage with too many children in their space, sound, overstimulation etc
Some children can not manage when others invade their space, cannot understand what is happening, need caring children around them, can feel scared etc and lash out

You see how they go and gradually add more time to avoiding the trigger and providing interventions to help when you hit those triggers.

Some children are on permanent reduced timetables due to health issues.

He is 4 and not of compulsory age, and a part-time timetable may help him avoid permanent exclusion and gently introduce more time and support.

Throwing him back in to full-time when they are not managing would be madness and a sure way for an exclusion to follow.

SEND can be excluded permanently regardless.

Neither the current government nor the previous one agrees with you, as they say that a reduced timetable certainly is an exclusion, and an unlawful one at that unless the guidance is followed. The problem here is that this school is not doing anything to increase time in school, and does not appear to be looking for the triggers and the required interventions either.

This child is 5 and of compulsory school age.

Nominative · 13/05/2025 11:16

1SillySossij · 13/05/2025 10:12

It's all very well posters saying the school is acting illegally, but the reality is that if he has another 'bad' afternoon, they will have no choice but to permanently exclude him, which you don't want.

Those are not the choices. What the school has to do is to follow the guidance and put in place support to avoid the need for exclusion. If it has not done so, it would not be justified in a permanent exclusion.

Nominative · 13/05/2025 11:17

BlusteryLake · 13/05/2025 10:12

These situations are basically impossible for mainstream schools to manage. This child is clearly unsuited to this setting, there is insufficient funding to even provide the 1 to 1 assistance that might at least safeguard the other 29 children in the class and prevent teachers from being attacked at work. I don't know what the answer is, apart from a lot more funding for special needs schools.

The answer in this case would have been to apply for an EHC needs assessment approximately last October. It appears there was ample evidence to support it.

Tgfrislip · 13/05/2025 11:17

Ok so what are his symptoms?
Pda is actually part of autism - demand avoidance. Whereas the adhd side wouod be oppositional defiance disorder.

Why was he excluded from the nursery?
Has his behaviour worsened since you had the you ger siblings so resentment or jealousy.

Adhd
Innattention and or hyperactivity, impulsivity

Autism
Communication issues (delayed speech)
Stims
Rigidity re routine or obsessive interests
Sensory issues

Its just you mentioned speech issues etc.

I think you should accept the part time. He isnt coping. He isnt likely to magically cope. Im actually surprised there hasnt been more issues earlier if he was excluded from nursery and only did 1/2 a day forest school.

Sleep issues? If so ask for referral for paeds for melatonin.

In some ways its ridiculous we are sending kids to school at 4.0yo full time but acknowledge that we wont assess for adhd till at least 5 likely 6. So we know some adhd type behaviour does happen but also that kids get no help for probably at least 2 years after starting school.

My kid did have some issues at preschool but escalated at school. I thought adhd from 3-5 at least but very fobbed off by school despite hitting/scrating/biting at school. Anyway dc improved gradually BUT still is adhd and reached a point at 9 so referred except school have conveniently 'forgotten' about all of the many issues in reception and y1. We had some afternoon suspensions etc. At a meeting i said dc needed supervision in the playground by them - they were not interested in that. And ridiculously thought i could control behaviour by reward charts or telling off at home! Worth a try but not possible for what was actually asd/adhd and created a worse downward spiral. So basically never any extra supervision at school.

So email confirming every issue youve been told about from school. Ask in writing if they know what happened beforehand to find triggers.

Certainly my adhd child you had to physically prevent doing things as didnt respond to no. Which obviously doesnt happen at school.

I wonder though how much notice op school took of issues before the child started school. As there isnt really an opportunity to relay issues. But then again its not helpful to start on a negative when change in setting could change behaviour.
It would be better if children with signs of asd or adhd saw a professional before starting school and so things can be monitored in case of likely worsening on starting school

Nominative · 13/05/2025 11:19

Genevieva · 13/05/2025 10:14

Whatever the official processes are, it sounds like the school has found a means of keeping him in school without another exclusion. They have also been willing to put work into an EHCP application (some schools drag their feet in this). It sounds like the current timetable is working well - allowing him to access education and then have a rest before he gets overwrought. In your shoes I’d be delighted. He’s only little still. Arguably many children his age would benefit from half days. Work with the school. Wait for the EHCP process to be completed and see where it takes you. Added maturity and some strategies may make fulltime mainstream school possible, or a specialist setting might be the recommended outcome.

The point is that the means they have found is unlawful. There is plenty of guidance as to what they should be doing instead, and there is no indication that they are making any attempt to follow it. They are making no attempt to provide education to fill in the gaps. An EHCP application should have gone in months ago.

clocktick · 13/05/2025 11:20

Mrsttcno1 · 13/05/2025 09:56

It’s really naive to see these as the only options to be honest.

OP can push for him to go back full time, the support isn’t in place as there is no EHCP clearly stating needs & allowing for funding to facilitate those needs, meaning that he’ll go back and potentially on week 2 have another “bad afternoon” resulting in physically damaging the school property AND also physically harming a teacher and this time they just permanently exclude. Is that genuinely what you think is it the best interest of the child?

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You say it’s naive to see those as the only options but I can’t see what other options there are.

He isn’t going to avoid having bad afternoons by not going in for the afternoon!

Original poster

Pressthespacebar · 13/05/2025 11:21

1SillySossij · 13/05/2025 10:49

And the child behaves very badly at home too, so I don't think you can pin this on the school

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It's not my fault or the schools fault he acts the way he does, he is different, I don't know exactly what he has yet but he has disabilities. I have 8 other children who are absolutely golden, no trouble at all so it's not my parenting in question, not by me or any of the many professionals that have been involved.

OP posts:

Nominative · 13/05/2025 11:22

Genevieva · 13/05/2025 10:18

I feel for you, but sadly your needs are not a consideration. If you throw the book at the school and demand full days, you will likely see more temporary exclusions when he reaches breaking point, followed by permanent exclusion. That’s a much less predictable set up for you to cope with. Work with the school. Show your appreciation where they do things well. It works wonders in getting good outcomes to have people feel that you are willing to work with them as a team.

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Don't you think the school should work with OP? They appear to be taking no steps whatsoever to review the part time arrangement, let alone to seek extra support and advice through the LA and otherwise. This has to be at least a two-way process, not the OP simply letting the school ride roughshod over her.

nomas · 13/05/2025 11:23

Pressthespacebar · 13/05/2025 07:59

Sorry I meant to include why he was excluded.

He basically just had a really bad afternoon and his behaviour escalated, he was running around the library and no one could catch him, he got into the trophy cabinet and then ripped down a wall unit. When the teacher finally got hold of him he pulled her hair and scratched her.

I understood why the timetable was out in place but I thought they would be gradually increasing it to get him used to full days again.

From what I've googled this is illegal, was just wondering if anyone else had been through it.

When the teacher finally got hold of him he pulled her hair and scratched her.

Any sympathy for this poor woman he’s scratched and pulled the hair of?

Nominative · 13/05/2025 11:23

Mrsttcno1 · 13/05/2025 10:18

The EHCP process is ongoing, he is 4 so not actually even compulsory school age yet, and really until something specific is in place the schools hands are tied.

They would clearly need an extra person specifically dedicated to just watch this one child, there is no diagnosis here, no EHCP to set that out, it’s not an easy situation for school or a quick one to resolve.

The facts are that the school can easily justify this being in the best interests of the child AND also in the best interests of the staff and other pupils for their safety.

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He is 5 and of compulsory school age.

The school cannot easily justify this when they seem to be taking no steps to follow the attendance and exclusions guidance, let alone the laws against disability discrimination. There is no need for a diagnosis for proper support to be put in place, including temporary funding to cover the period till an EHCP is granted.

Nominative · 13/05/2025 11:26

Overthebow · 13/05/2025 10:23

I don't think any of it's acceptable, of course OPs child should have an education. But I don't think it's the school's fault either, they have tried and don't have the resources. They can't magic up money or more staff. They should absolutely help with the ECHP, but in the meantime they've put this plan in place.

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What is your evidence for saying the school has tried? "Trying" would have involved applying for an EHCP a long time ago, and seeking professional advice and interim funding from the LA to fund extra support. It would also involve complying with the law, which this school is clearly not doing.

Nominative · 13/05/2025 11:27

Mrsttcno1 · 13/05/2025 10:25

Okay but he is in reception yes? So not a compulsory year?

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Full time education is compulsory from the term after the child reaches 5, including for children in Reception.

Original poster

Pressthespacebar · 13/05/2025 11:28

Tgfrislip · 13/05/2025 11:17

Ok so what are his symptoms?
Pda is actually part of autism - demand avoidance. Whereas the adhd side wouod be oppositional defiance disorder.

Why was he excluded from the nursery?
Has his behaviour worsened since you had the you ger siblings so resentment or jealousy.

Adhd
Innattention and or hyperactivity, impulsivity

Autism
Communication issues (delayed speech)
Stims
Rigidity re routine or obsessive interests
Sensory issues

Its just you mentioned speech issues etc.

I think you should accept the part time. He isnt coping. He isnt likely to magically cope. Im actually surprised there hasnt been more issues earlier if he was excluded from nursery and only did 1/2 a day forest school.

Sleep issues? If so ask for referral for paeds for melatonin.

In some ways its ridiculous we are sending kids to school at 4.0yo full time but acknowledge that we wont assess for adhd till at least 5 likely 6. So we know some adhd type behaviour does happen but also that kids get no help for probably at least 2 years after starting school.

My kid did have some issues at preschool but escalated at school. I thought adhd from 3-5 at least but very fobbed off by school despite hitting/scrating/biting at school. Anyway dc improved gradually BUT still is adhd and reached a point at 9 so referred except school have conveniently 'forgotten' about all of the many issues in reception and y1. We had some afternoon suspensions etc. At a meeting i said dc needed supervision in the playground by them - they were not interested in that. And ridiculously thought i could control behaviour by reward charts or telling off at home! Worth a try but not possible for what was actually asd/adhd and created a worse downward spiral. So basically never any extra supervision at school.

So email confirming every issue youve been told about from school. Ask in writing if they know what happened beforehand to find triggers.

Certainly my adhd child you had to physically prevent doing things as didnt respond to no. Which obviously doesnt happen at school.

I wonder though how much notice op school took of issues before the child started school. As there isnt really an opportunity to relay issues. But then again its not helpful to start on a negative when change in setting could change behaviour.
It would be better if children with signs of asd or adhd saw a professional before starting school and so things can be monitored in case of likely worsening on starting school

I have been going through this since he was 2 but it was difficult for him to be seen. He was referred to salt at 2 from the first nursery as he wasn't speaking at all, saw a health visitor at 2 and a half who said he had gdd and referred him to the CDC (I think) and when he went to the other nursery they mentioned ruined ehcp but didn't do anything about it and I didn't realise I could do it myself.

He has basically all the symptoms of ADHD, all the symptoms of PDA/autism except he eats absolutely everything, to the point where he eats things that aren't food and has to be watched when eating as he stuffs so much food in his mouth there's a danger he might choke.

He takes all his clothes off and puts socks on his hands as soon as we get home, I make him wear pants at the very least but he takes them off constantly. He smears ☹️ still wears a nappy at bedtime and won't poo on the toilet at all but is fine in the day with wees. He needs constant supervision all day and at night I have to secure his door so he can't get out else he will run a bath, run around waking everyone up, smash things up.

OP posts: