Controlled crying and pick up/put down - are they the same thing and are they humane as I'm about to give in

[Gangle]

Currently trying what I think is the latter with DS, 16 weeks, and feel the worse mummy in the world. I've never been able to leave him cry before but has reached the point where he is exhausted as he has given up napping during the day and fights sleep all evening. I first tried to put him to bed at 8.15 this evening after bath, cuddles etc. He's still crying now although I've been in to pick up and comfort several times. He stopped crying each time and seemed to fall asleep but wakes the minute I put him down. On the verge of caving in - should I stick with it or give in?

One thing that strikes me is that your ds is getting through the day without any naps - could it just be that he is just incredibly overtired? They get so overtired they just can't sleep... My dd is 21 weeks and if she's awake for more than 2 and a half hours/3 hours at a time, she's incredibly difficult to get off to sleep. Don't they say something like 4 hours worth of naps or something like that at that age? Could it be that you get him back to sleeping during the day and then the nightime will sort itself out?

poor you - its exhausting I know, but I don't think there is anything wrong in being cuddled / rocked / fed / to sleep. babies are designed to do this and mothers are designed to respond to their baby's cry. 16 weeks is young, they need to know that you come when they cry, they would not survive without this mechanism, and they need to trust that you will come and comfort them and meet their needs.

I hope you find a way of coping, I've got a 6 m old who is not a great sleeper, but he is such a conted child.

If a baby can't have his needs met who can?

that should have read contented and not some other spelling error!

DD is 16 weeks and could go whole days without napping more than an hour or so - and that was if she was out in pushchair or car. Last three nights she has been screaming with overtiredness so today I actively tried to get her to nap. Not easy, lots of tears but bedtime tonight was an improvement.

After the usual few attempts to get her down (lying on bed, feeding (dozed off), put down, cried, picked up, fed again, cuddled, grizzled, briefly fed again, she was put down and I left the room, listening at the door.
No sound for a good ten minutes. I went back when the grizzling turned to crying, picked her up, cuddled her, put her down again and she stuck her thumb in her mouth and dozed off.
I stayed in the room and she stirred and grizzled but then settled herself.
So you have my sympathy. But also a message of hope!

Well, there's a glimmer of hope! DS took only 2 hours to settle last night instead of 3 as he did the night before and is on much better form today which I think is definitely because he is better slept. Last night I ended up doing a mixture of cuddling to sleep, pick up/put down and half laying in his cot and cuddling him until he fell asleep - he then woke up and cried for about 20 minutes (grizzling really, not crying badly) then stopped and started playing with the soft book in his cot they fall asleep a few minutes later with no crying. Is this progress or a one off?? As everyone says, I think you have to find a method of what's right to you. Will be interested to see what happens tonight but he takes less than 2 hours to settle then we could be on the right track.

Zwiggy, I totally agree with you but out of desperation have begun to let him cry a little, just to see if that helps and he was refusing to settle in the day or at night and, as a result, was completed overtired.

Its very tough. Even Ferber, the father of controlled crying, suggests waiting til LO is 6months though. Thats because at 6months babies develop object permanance - ie they learn that you will come back. Until 6 months, they cry because they have a need and if you don't respond, they weill feel neglected and at worst they may learn to withdraw and stop communicating. We have chosen to do gradual withdrawal at 8 months and its going well. Most babies (esp bf) will need milk in the night to at least 6months (and often much longer!!!) Even the die hards like Gina Ford will suggest a late feed to help baby through the night. I just keep repeating 'its a stage... it will pass!'

I seem to type this a lot. CC is not meant to be used on babies under 6 months and its proponents make this very clear.

PU/PD is suitable from 4 months onwards - before that its too stimulating for your dc and you risk making a bad problem worse.

Prior to 4 months the Baby Whisperer Shush/Pat technique certainly comes highly recommended by me. My ds, now approaching 11mo went through several rubbishy sleep phases and contrary to what seems to be becoming the percieved wisdom I fed him because I thought he was hungry. He went back to sleep. He didn't continue to wake for everymore at night in search of a snack. Everything was fine.

It's insane to be so sure about exactly what all babies think and feel at exactly four months and exactly six months. There is no such certainty.

Besides, conventional wisdom is that object permanence is developed around 8-9 months, but recent studies have shown that even 3 month old babies have an understanding of it. Where on earth did you get the six months mark for object permanence?

Gangle - how was it tonight?

Fair enough, Cote d'azur - should have clarified that my comments represent my understanding of the situation from the reading I've done. The main thing is finding an approach that you feel is safe for your LO and that you feel comfortable with. Obviously we all have different limits, but I still feel that we can research current thinking and advice - even if it will all have changed again by the time our LOs are parents!

What 'reading' you've done? What are your sources that claim a baby will 'feel neglected' if left to cry for a few minutes before 6 months, and will not feel neglected in the same circumstances when he is 6.5 months? What is the source for your claim that 'most babies will need milk in the night until at least six months'?

It's all jolly good that you now say it's all so subjective and we should all find what feels good for us etc, but your previous post was quite damning on those of us who got their babies to sleep through between 4 and 6 months. I for one would like an explanation of that initial certainty on your part.

Cote - I'm going to leave this one here - rather than hijack Gangle's post. Sorry if I've offended you or touched a nerve, just all trying to muddle through as best we can. Could, of course, print a bibliography of my reading, but don't really think it would achieve anything! Good luck, Gangle.

Minicooper, it's not the waking in the night that's the problem but getting DS to go to sleep. If he wakes in the night I always offer him the breast but he can generally last 6 or 7 hours at night without feeding. Last night it only took an hour to get him to sleep. I comforted him every few minutes then ended up feeding him until he fell into a light sleep as by that point he had been 2 hours without a feed and I wanted to be certain he wasn't hungry. Miraculously he didn't wake when I put him into his cot and slept straight through until 3.45 when he woke for a feed (same time as the night before). So, looks like it could be working. Will see what happens tonight. I don't really get why CC is seen as so bad but PU/PD is condoned by most people - they don't seem very different to me. Both involve letting the baby cry but in one you go in and soothe him. I could never use a technique that didn't involve soothing every few minutes. Having said that, have just tried to put DS down for his nap and he is currently screaming his head off. If you start using a technique at bedtime do you have to keep using it for daytime naps? Just can't face doing it every time plus barely seems worth it for a nap of 2 hours when I could spend the whole 2 hours going in and out but is not doing so sending conflicting messages?

not read it all.

i did the crying thing not sure which name.
but for ds i used to go in every min. and within 10 mins he was sleeping when i did it for him.

for dd this didn't work. she got more and more upset everytime i went to see her.

i discovered if i just put her down and left her. she cried for up to 5 mins then give up and go to sleep. as long as i never went anywhere near her. she'd be sleeping by 10 mins.

i must admit. ds would wake up thru the night and couldn't get back to sleep.

dd ha never had this problem. she wakes up has a wee moan for about 10 secs then drifts off again.

all kids are different. gotta keep trying till you crack it. it was torture listening dd cry the first night without seeing her. but i was sure pleased i did when she went straight to sleep the 2nd night.

Not a good night tonight. DS had a good day but has currently been crying since 7.45. Have been going in every five then 10 then 15 minutes and sounds like he may stop soon but I feel terribly guilty. Not sure I can do this again, plus it only took an hour last night so not even sure I'm making any progress and tonight it's 1 hr 30 mins and still going. Why must they cry every time you try to put them to bed? Just heartbreaking but if I pick him up now will be even worse.

I second some of the posts that recommend the Elizabeth Pantley No Cry Sleep Solution. I didn't use it religiously but it really helped me get my DS to nap better in the day and although he still wakes quite a bit in the night, he is at least rested and happier during the day. Its really hard when they are tired and grizzly all day every day so I sympathise with you.

Do you have a good bedtime routine? I followed bath, massage, books, bf, bed from when he was tiny which really helped. We also had a CD of lullabies which was played every night at bedtime. We took it with us on car journeys as well and it worked really well at settling my DS to nap in the car, so he obviously associated the sounds with sleep.

Hope it gets better for you soon.

please read this

have you tried the baby whisperer ways? she uses the EASY and PU/PD method.

oops wrong thread sorry.