Honest view on sleep training

[Emmajane1987]

Hi all,
I have a nearly 4 year old son and a 6 month old baby girl and they’re both driving me to the point of insanity/ depression with their terrible sleep.
We did a small amount of Cry it out with my son when he was about 7 months and it seemed to really work for about a year and a bit, but since turning 2.5 until now he’s been terrible. Multiple night wakings/ early mornings and now will only sleep in dad’s bed (but still wakes up etc)
Im in another room with the baby who was until about a month ago sleeping great. She now wakes up 6-7 times a night. I am absolutely exhausted/ depressed and feel suicidal most days just because I want some sleep.
Im considering cry it out or similar for the baby (god knows what I can do about the toddler now, feels too late)
some mum friends say to do it and that it worked for them really quickly. But also reading it can cause emotional stress/ damage to the developing brains. I have to survive and keep my sanity so I need sleep but equally I’m worried about damaging the kids development. Anyone have any experience in sleep training and if you think it’s ok or did it even work etc? I’m a wimp with crying so I’m not sure I can hack it anyway but I’m at my wits end, and dreading another night x

Does 4yo mouth breathe? I would check for enlarged adenoids if he's waking so frequently.

I think if you're struggling with the lack of sleep to the point your mental health is suffering, sleep training is definitely something to consider. Maternal mental health postpartum isn't something to take lightly. It can cascade quite quickly, especially when sleep deprived. 💐 Your kids will thrive more with a healthy mum, even if sleep training is rough.

Personally it's not for me - but I did night wean my second early because the sleep deprivation killed me and I needed to share the load with my DH. If my eldest hadn't been sleeping through the night at that point, I think I would have had to sleep train.

Mine were sleep trained DD at 14mo and DS at 9mo. I don't regret anything about it except for waiting as long as we did. I was hallucinating with tiredness with DD, couldn't drive, didn't feel safe being around her. And yes, I was close to hurting myself over it. I couldn't go through that again with DS, so we did it a lot earlier.

They were both utterly miserable because they were exhausted. DD especially, and then when DS wouldn't sleep she was kept awake again (she was 4), so I said it had to stop.

We left them both for 1min, then 2, then 3, etc, going in to comfort (but not pick up!) between each time. Our cut-off was 10mins (which we were planning to repeat) but it never got that far. I think the longest was about 5mins before they fell asleep. First nights were awful, second was worse, third improved massively and by the fourth they were sleeping through. The change in their temprements was immediate, it was like a bloody miracle. Who knew that waking up every 30-45mins and having to be helped back to sleep by someone who was losing their mind would make anybody grumpy during the day?

It doesn't work for everyone but it worked for us. They're 7 and 11 now, and neither remember any of it. Both go to bed without any battles, and sleep perfectly. All of the stuff about "they learn you won't come when they cry" is absolutely fucking bollocks. If they need us, they call us. If they don't need us, they sleep.

Good luck to you, OP. It's rough, but you'll get through it.

If you Google 'BASIS Durham University' you can find evidence based information about infant sleep. That may be helpful.

Sleep training that involves leaving my child distressed isn't for me but I honestly don't judge people who do it. Our DC3 is just 1 and the worst sleeper of our 3 and my goodness it is tough tough tough. I get why people do it, I really do. But for our children it would have been very distressing. Also there's no good evidence that children sleep more after being sleep trained, just to counteract the people saying it's to benefit the baby. The babies stop calling out for their parents as much but that does not mean they're sleeping more, there's no evidence for that. Aactually the best quality study showed the opposite, that waking was as often, but parents didn't realise as baby wasnt calling out to disturb them anymore. Again I'm not downplaying parents sleep needs but just as reassurance that sleep training isn't necessary for babies own sleep/health needs.

Does your toddler still have a daytime nap? Perhaps he needs to drop it if he does

Was at my wits end and hired a sleep consultant who was very much about self settling. My baby went from waking 45-60 min over night, needing dummy runs, taking 45 min to get to sleep during day, and being chronically over tired and crying for long periods as a result to being the most happy and content baby, sleeping 12 hours a night and self settling for every nap and sleep. DH and me always said he cried much much less overall because he wasn’t crying all day and night anymore.
It transformed our lives! I was at absolute breaking point, not to mention that I fell unwell with a virus which I could not recover from due to lack of sleep and stress. The closest I’ve ever felt to cracking up with no help, bar my husband when he wasn’t working.
My only regret was the sleep consultant was pretty strict, she was very much just leave them and told me off for going in and ‘making it worse’.
First she said 15 min but on night one he fell asleep within that which was a relief. The next day was a success but on night two she was consulting us over WhatsApp just saying to leave him another 15 min, in the end I remember it got to 45 min and I really regret that. We felt like if we didn’t listen we would not succeed but actually, it didn’t need to be done and dusted in 2 nights. By night three he fell asleep within a few min. I feel so awful for that second night. I remember her saying 30 mins is nothing for a boy and they can cry for hours because they are learning who is boss. I don’t agree with it at all. especially having my second, I didn’t have any sleep issues with him and I couldn’t leave him for 5 min.

I'm glad you've said this. I absolutely hate when people who are against sleep training say your child learns not to call to you. It's absolutely baseless. When my four year old is sick or can't sleep, she calls to us... And we come and help her. I just don't rock her to sleep 20-30 times a night..... (Even when co-sleeping, my second woke every 15 minutes for awhile). My 4 year old also very happily goes to bed each night while some of my anti sleep training friends are having 2 hour bedtime battles! Sleep deprivation is torture, OP. Sleep is so good for you and for your children.

Yes I am ok many WhatsApp groups with mums who had newborns and a toddler who needed settling for hours. The mums were sending out SOS messages. I was thinking what a good decision it was to teach DC1 to self settle.

I think the vast majority of parents sleep train in one form or another. But no one admits it. The anti people are just too psychotic to have to deal with.

Thanks everyone for all the messages and kind words. I’m going to read up on the studies quoted as well as the books/ courses suggested and give it a go. I really want to find some joy in this part of life/ parenting but just don’t have the capacity when sleep is so non existent. Hopefully we’ll all get some better sleep soon and life can be a bit more enjoyable for all! X

@Emmajane1987id also look up routines and make sure your little one is able to self settle but also following age appropriate routine, the balance of wake windows and the right amount of milk/food/sleep per day is important for over night sleep. With weaning now it’s a great time to be leaning into it all. Good luck and self settling training as I call it, only takes a few nights! X

Several people I’ve spoken to don’t actually understand what sleep training is or how it works. Most methods don’t involve forcing or allowing your kid to cry indefinitely or ignoring them if they’re in distress. Anyway, I sleep trained both - first at 18 months, second at 4 months. Both took just 3 nights to train, both are excellent sleepers at age 4 and 7. Both are well behaved and adjusted - I attribute much of this to them getting at least 10 hrs unbroken sleep since they were little, plus when they are rested I find they eat, learn and grow better. I’ve only had a handful of broken nights sleep since and that is only when they are unwell or jet lagged. Also my husband (or anyone caring for them) can help settle them which means the load is shared on the rare occasions it’s necessary. I’m a much better and healthier mother because I’m not suicidal or homicidal with exhaustion. Lack of proper sleep isn’t great for kids and it sure as hell isn’t great for parents.

There is a basis in babies and children who are neglected and learn not to cry because it doesn’t do any good. That’s a very different scenario from a loved child who is being taught to self-settle and go to sleep on their own. I think the knee-jerk reaction comes from the stereotype of the severely sleep-deprived parent who decides they’ve had enough and ends up leaving a distressed child to cry it out until either parent or child caves in. Whereas for me, sleep training means giving your child a consistent routine and the tools to fall asleep on their own. All of my children, once they were able to fall asleep on their own, would cry out for me if they were scared, or would occasionally want to go to sleep in my bed so they categorically had not learned that I wouldn’t respond to them when they were upset.

My second child didn’t sleep through the night reliably until he was 6 and my third child until he was 5 and it was absolutely gruelling trying to function on prolonged disturbed sleep. The only upside is when they become teenagers and you get to have a small revenge when it’s your turn to wake them up from a deep sleep!

OP I’m so sorry you’re feeling this way.

I would suggest that if you sleep trained your 4 year old and he is now waking and needing lots of support it probably didn’t really ‘work’ and after not having the support he once needed it is exacerbated, I am not saying the sleep training caused this by the way - more that he needs to build strong foundations in his brain to feel safe have independence and maybe these haven’t formed yet. If you are in this position now with him I’d probably not be looking at following a similar trajectory with your little one.

If you think there’s a medical reason for your 4 year old seek help - does he sleep with his mouth open? Is he tired/hyperactive in the day? Could he have an iron deficiency?

for your 6 month old look at sleep pressure and the same as above. Too much day sleep? Are you following a generic routine which possibly doesn’t work for your baby? I feel there are other ways round this than ‘sleep training’ but you need support and help. Please speak to your GP and health visitor and be honest about how you feel and if something doesn’t feel right in your gut, follow it

"your kids won’t remember"

They may not remember consciously but they will remember subconsciously.

They are much more likely, whether consciously or subconsciously, to remember their mum being constantly stressed, snappy, depressed or, god forbid, dead.

Presumably none of the PPs who say sleep training is barbaric have ever driven their car with their child crying in the carseat without immediately pulling over and responding to their cry by shushing and soothing however long and however many times it took for them to have a cry-free journey…

with a 4 month old who I am just able to do a 10 minute journey with without hysterical crying I can confirm every car journey until recently, I have had to pull over as soon as safe whether or not my toddler is there or not. Why would you leave them screaming? A very strange comparison really.

Exactly! I thought I hated being a mum - left him at nursery until the very last minute as I couldn't bear the thought of having to do bed time and deal with the night that was ahead of me! Really resented him!

Once I got him sleeping better with sleep training - this all stopped - i pick him up early and dropped a day at work to spend more time with him! and enjoy him and our time together so much more -I was a way worse mother to him before sleep training!

They also cry way less after sleep training. Mine cried because he was over tired, cried for 45 mins with me rocking him trying to get him to sleep, woke up crying because was over tired so sleep quality was hindered. This was just the day! Awful cycle and went on over night too. Everyday at 3/4pm he’d cry the house down, red in the face, clenching fists in pain. I’m sure he had Collic to boot. A lot of it was over tiredness too. Feeding was hard because he was so tired he’d fall asleep as soon as he was latched, so he wouldn’t have a full tummy either. Getting him to self settle was the fly wheel for better temperament, less crying, full tummy, colic disappearing but that could have been his age. I regret leaving him to cry the second night but I was at breaking point and the closest I’ve ever felt to cracking up, so it was needs must.

Just to clarify I am not pro sleep training…I was saying I wouldn’t and don’t leave my baby to cry in the car,

This. With our second, husband working away all week and overseas students to look after too I had little choice in the end.

Hated it. Took 3 days.
21 years on, lovely young man, we’re very close.

I was going through cancer treatment when we saw a gentle sleep consultant. My 6 month old woke up every 45 minutes, DH tried cosleeping (I had to sleep separately as she would tug at my PICC line which added an additional misery to it all) but she still woke up constantly and then was a nightmare in the day as she was overtired. We were at breaking point because I was feeling generally rotten and DH was doing most of the heavily lifting at night plus working in the day. We did not do CIO, it was a bit like “disappearing chair” but my god after about a week she was sleeping properly and at 3.5 she is still a fantastic sleeper. She categorically did not learn that no one will come if she is upset, what she learned was that she can get herself back to sleep if she’s simply woken up and nothing is wrong. I know this because I see her waking up on the monitor in her room: sometimes she’ll sit up, have a bit of a dazed look around then tuck herself back in with a teddy and a muslin, and other times - when she’s upset or ill - she will call out for us and we’ll go straight to her. OP, it was worth every penny we spent and I don’t feel the slightest bit of guilt. I don’t know what would have happened to us all had we not sorted out her sleep, those days were simply dreadful.

my 4 yr old is a TERRIBLE sleeper. she’ll go to sleep fine (that took a sleep consultants input) now but will wake up after a few hours climbing into our bed. However many times we put her back she’ll come back it’s awful. it’s now effecting her more as she’s started school. the tantrums and mood swings are awful. like a child possessed. i’ve sought advise on her sleep from the HV (I also have a 10m old) and it was useless. i’m totally lost now. we tried to sleep train her as a baby but she was so ramped up within a minute i couldn’t do it. no amount of ahhing and patting would calm her.

I’m very in favour of it! Done in the right way with good support. It will help you be a better mum if you get a good night’s sleep.

I agree with this. I've never seen much convincing evidence about the long term emotional impact on sleep training. If your child is in a loving environment and being shown loving and responsive behaviour from their caregivers throughout the day then I fail how a few minutes of crying is going to undo this and give them life long trauma and attachment issues.

However what is clear and evidence for is the impact of sleep deprivation on children, babies and adults. For children and babies, it impacts on their behaviour and development and impacts on their emotional and physical health as well as yours.