On our knees with 2yo sleep.

[maureenponderosa]

Thought I had sleep cracked with DC1. Wasn't an easy journey but he's been a good sleeper since he was 1. Turns out it was just luck and not the skill of the routine...
DC2 has never been a good sleeper. The bad has been varied - from multiple wake ups to sleep refusal, so at least it's not bad AND boring...

We're currently into our fourth week of wake ups between 4 and 5am. We need help. I'm not sure whether to call the GP, or the HV, or pay out for a sleep consultant.

She's obviously over-tired because her bad moods are terrible. She throws things, hits my husband, and just screams and screams at the top of her lungs. Often for no reason. This morning, I gently asked her not to touch my face as my acne has become very bad (probably stress and lack of sleep), and she had a 10 minute melt down about that.

Related information:
She is still breastfeeding. I don't BF her in the night. It's just morning and before bed.
She's not fed to sleep. She settles herself to sleep when we put her down.
Bedtime is at 7:30. Routine is bath, pjs, milk, story, song and a cuddle.
She hardly eats anything. She never seems hungry. She does eat fruit, veg, and yoghurt, but hardly anything filling.
She hardly drinks any water despite being offered all day. Her urine isn't too strong.
She does a 2 hour nap when she's at home at the weekends. She will do a 45 minute nap at kindergarten. Sometimes she has no nap. The naps don't seem to have any impact on her night sleep.
Her room is completely black out.

We have tried:
Co sleeping
Sleeping in a cot
Sleeping in a floor bed
Bringing bedtime earlier
Doing bedtime later
Doing an evening walk to tire her out
Offering wheetabix before bed
Giving a banana before bed
Giving a spoon of butter before bed (apparently fat is slow release. This just made her determined to climb the counter and steal butter all the time)
Offering water and leaving water in her room
Gro Clock
No eye-contact resettles

It's not fair on my son. He has school and feels tired all the time from being disturbed. He's certainly not getting the best of us anymore as DD2 is so ill-tempered and demanding, and we're running on fumes.

I'm almost at the point of moving my son into the bedroom furthest away from hers, putting her in the cot, putting ear plugs in and just leaving her to it until 6:30am. I just can't go on like this. I feel like I'm going to die. Or be fired from my job.

Does anyone have any advice?

RE breastfeeding, she'll stop when she wants to. I don't think it is connected, as I don't feed her until proper waking up time.

Regarding the hitting, we have a family approach where we do put her down, get down to her level (not holding her shoulders as we want to model kind hands especially in these moments), and say gently but directly, "I can't carry you if you hit me. If you need to hit, hit a cushion."

She's getting there, but she's 2 and she's got great big feelings, a sense of free will but a lack of control, and a still developing brain.

Two thoughts, if she is mostly sleeping 8pm - 5am and two hours in the day then she might be getting enough sleep for her needs. Fighting her to stay asleep for longer in the mornings will just make you all frustrated. Super early wake ups are brutal, but they won’t be forever. And if you can’t change her then you have to change you. I used to get up with mine at five, give them stuff to play with and then sort of zombie my way through until 6:30 which I felt was a reasonable time to start the day. I remember watching Mr Tumble when it was still dark.
Secondly, how much milk is she having when she breastfeeds? It looks like she might be still relying on that for calories, but that’s not sustainable long term.

She's definitely not eating enough. Is she having a multi vitamin at least?

Try and sneak the calories in... Give her smoothies etc with whole milk, peanut butter etc. give her ice-cream if you have to! It might be part of the problem.

Sounds like she does have plenty of sleep and energy.

How's her concentration?

What? Why would stopping breast feeding help?

Cap the nap.
Offer fewer options at meal times with food and consider smaller portions. I mean - keep offering a variety but not all at once, it sounds like you're offering loads at the same time looking at your lunch list yesterday, which could be overwhelming with choices, especially if ND might be in the background. Bulk everything out with sneaky nutrients wherever you can e.g. apple - offer it sliced with peanut butter to dip into, etc.
Keep BF.

Can you go to bed earlier to maximise your sleep?

Gosh, I had this with my son at this age. I thought the tiredness was going to kill me. The early morning wake ups temporarily became all night sleep fighting and I remember deciding that I wouldn't bother getting into pj's myself, because I had a night of parenting ahead of me. It was gruelling.

The early morning wake ups settled into a routine of watching Moana on the couch every single day at 5am (if I was lucky) for months.

For wakeups during the night, I started taking him downstairs and making porridge at 2am. You try anything at this point. I think I leaned into how crap it was to the point where I now cherish a lot of those memories. Crazy really.

She sounds like my DS who has recently been diagnosed with Autism and ADHD. Things that have had success on and off are weighted blanket (appropriate for child's weight), magnesium supplements (the ones we have say 3+), co-sleeping when in a bad patch.

DS also gets a lot of leg pain in the evening and at night, I think it is quite likely he has a connective tissue disorder (common in ASD). Calpol or ibuprofen at bedtime help, GP says it is fine to use daily if in pain. Your DC may be too little to express if she has any regular aches and pains.

He also is a nightmare to get food and drink into!

OP, no huge advice but my daughter stopped napping by then or more we had to stop her napping because it impacted bedtime so much. Also totally agree with the work out how to make it manageable for you both for now by sharing the load, prioritising early night etc. It will change, even just if she can learn to stay in her room eventually.

Just to say, I’ve had to wake my son (now 3) from naps since he was quite young, as otherwise he would happily sleep 2-3 hours in the mid afternoon and then be awake at 10pm!!
I had ADHd and difficulties going to sleep myself so I do wonder if he will turn out to have similar.

anyway- you’ve had plenty of good practical advice on here. I would second checking she’s not waking because she’s cold at that time of day. My son went through an early waking phase, I think due to it being light to bloody early at this time of year.

PS: yes spending time on phone robs us of sleep, but you do need some time to yourself and to switch off. Try to cap it but don’t beat yourself up about it .

One of mine was like this. I nearly lost my mind. He is a twin as well and his twin was just a normal sleeper which is hard enough when they’re tiny but T1 only slept for 40 mins at a time. He has since been diagnosed with ADHD and is medicated. When he was a toddler our paediatrician prescribed teeeeny amounts of melatonin and that helped enormously, as did co sleeping. It does get better. He sleeps till noon now but when he’s awake doesn’t stop talking ever. Ever.

She sounds a lot like my eldest daughter. She also met a few red flags at 1 year and was behind with S&L but then caught up very quickly around age 2 and then was reading fluently before age 3. She doesn’t strictly meet the criteria for hyperlexia because she comprehends what she reads but she definitely had very precocious reading ability despite never being taught any phonics or how to read directly. She was diagnosed with ASD at 3.5 and she is almost certainly also ADHD.

She has low sleep needs in general and I agree with pp that a 2 hour nap is most likely far too much. If my DD had 2 hours in the day at this age then we’d be lucky to get 9 hours at night which would be 8-5. I’d cap it at 45 mins as the long naps are likely supporting the early morning wakes.

A PP very blithely suggested giving up breastfeeding and I know you said you don’t feed her until proper wake up time. However… my DD also did exactly this when I tried to night wean her. She just didn’t understand why she could have milk in the morning but not at night and she would wake up looking forward to it and sometimes asking for it. They’re too young to understand time properly so the fact that you delay feeding her until your accepted “wake up time” may have completely gone over her head and she just knows she gets milk in the mornings. If she’s only having milk twice a day and will drink an alternative milk and/or smoothies then I would seriously consider stopping. Our early wakes stopped within a week of weaning.

sorry if you mentioned it somewhere else but is she potty training? Being aware of needing a wee may also be waking her in the morning even if she’s not yet dry.

I agree with suggestions to offer less choice at meal times and offer things that are a bit more plain and/or can be eaten separately. So instead of offering a chicken sandwich offer some pieces of chicken and some bread and butter. My DD always ate a good range of foods if you listed them out individually but she would never have eaten something like a chicken sandwich at age 2 nor would she have eaten a sauce mixed with rice or pasta. If she is reluctant to drink water as well she may be quite sensitive to tastes? Would you be willing to offer an additive free squash like Rocks to see if she’ll drink more or will she drink diluted juice? If you can get some more food and drink into her then it might help stop possible hunger wakings, like you say.

Also sorry I know you didn’t specifically ask about the hitting but although your phrasing about it is a beautiful example of (proper) gentle parenting I also think it is too verbose and complex for a (at this point presumably angry, dysregulated) 26mo. I would just put her down as soon as she hits you and say “we don’t hit” or “no hitting”.

(sorry this is a bee I have in my bonnet about a lot of GP guidance and advice, they talk a lot about children’s under developed brains but yet expect young toddlers to be able to understand complex grammatical structures when they are purple with rage).

I also thought she sounds like she may have additional needs. People with ASD can have lower naturally occuring levels of melatonin which regulates sleep and means they don't sleep deeply either when they do sleep, leaving them feeling tired a lot of the time (ASD in my nuclear family). Would also explain the dietary preferences.

Yes, we sometimes had to wake them to keep the nap under an hour. We're lucky to have a nursery that looks at sleep holistically, and agreed a shorter nap and decent night's sleep was in their overall best interest.

For the early wakes, fair doesn't necessarily mean equal. If he is more of a morning person or naturally needs less sleep that you, it may be that you agree he does more early wakes and you do more of something else. You just both need to think it's fair and know who is on call each morning.

I'm another one who would try potentially fewer things at each meal, but served separately so she can mix or not as she chooses. I would also make sure there is something she'll fairly reliably eat at each meal – you don't want her deciding she'd rather skip the meal. For the crisps, is it possible she likes the crispy texture? You could try crackers, crispy breadsticks, homemade pitta crisps, etc. and see if she goes for any of those.

My first thought was could she be cold too OP, I have read often that a 4/5am wake up is often due to them being cold, and it's proved true with my little one.

Update on last night.
I made fried chicken and udon noodles, which she loved and ate a fair amount of. I gave rhubarb crumble (rhubarb that she'd helped harvest from the garden) with ice cream, of which she also ate a decent amount.
I put the plug in rad into her room, and she was down for sleep by 8pm. She'd had a 1.5 hour nap in the day, and was awake from 4:30am.

She woke at 5:30, so not as bad as it can be. When I went into her, I noticed that it was nice and warm, but that there's light coming in under her door. The doors were fitted when she had carpet, but I've put down wooden flooring since so the gap is bigger than it should be.

I tried to get her to read and play in her room, but she started shouting "IT'S WAKING UP TIME!!", so we relocated to my room (husband in the guest room to give him a break). We cuddled and read for half an hour before having a feed and going downstairs for brekkie.

Next steps: I'll think of a way to reduce daylight coming in under her door and continue to use the radiator.

@skkyelark I'm another one who would try potentially fewer things at each meal, but served separately so she can mix or not as she chooses. I would also make sure there is something she'll fairly reliably eat at each meal – you don't want her deciding she'd rather skip the meal. For the crisps, is it possible she likes the crispy texture?

This is good advice. I do try to make sure there's a 'safe food' with each meal and we do a lot of serve yourself from the dishes in the middle of the table.

I'm hoping she'll get back into carrots and broccoli when our garden starts producing. I'll also create more time for cooking together. Both children seem more invested in eating when they've helped to grow and prepare it.

You could try crackers, crispy breadsticks, homemade pitta crisps, etc. and see if she goes for any of those

It's funny you should say this. She was positively joyful about the chicken in last night's meal. She said "It's so crispy!!" after every bite. Breadsticks and pitta crisps are a very good shout.

She doesn't ever take up the offer of hitting a cushion to be honest. We probably are using too many words with her, mainly because we're not differentiating our parenting approach between the children enough, and because, to be fair to her, her level of understanding is so good. Probably not though when she's dysregulated.

Our poor son is being so patient with her. If he even looks at something that she is either playing with, or about to play with, she will scream so shrilly, it hurts his ears, and often tries to push him. Our current approach to this is to physically separate her from him, and then ask her to use her words, modelling a short, kind phrase for her to copy, which she does.

I don't know if it's sinking in, but I want our son to see that we're backing him, and that we hold her to the same standards as we hold him in our most important family rule - kindness.

It is difficult though as she seems to be absolutely livid 75% of the time. It probably feels more than it is though.

Do you think you’re maybe inadvertently rewarding the early wakes with cuddles, 1:1 play and then the feed? Everything I read when I was struggling with my middle one waking early said to keep it as boring as possible. Lights stay off, only water to drink, no yummy snacks, no playing just lying quietly until it’s reached an acceptable time. Obviously you can’t physically stop her from playing with stuff but you can move any exciting toys away, maybe just have a few books, and definitely don’t join in. Otherwise waking up early becomes a really good way of having some lovely individual attention and play time with mummy. They’re not stupid!

Maybe drop the morning feed too, and if you want to keep breastfeeding just keep the bedtime feed.

This. She’s running rings around you. You sound a bit of a ‘gentle parent’ but this is how such children end up - somewhat anxious and desperately needing their parents to take control. It sounds like she has your house in a merry dance.

Eating more food & sleeping better. Sorry - it’s true.

I’m a big fan of breastfeeding and EBF for 18 months, but this seems part of a wider picture of the DD ruling the roost and dominating her mother. More importantly she isn’t even happy. She needs firm simple boundaries, to eat proper food, and blend in as part of the family.

@BigRenoLittleBudget This was so helpful to read, thank you so much for replying. How old is your daughter now? She sounds amazing. What did the early red flags look like? What signs was she showing at 3.5 to trigger diagnosis?

It is very much in our family. I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was a teenager. There's ADHD and ASD on both mine and my husband's side. My son shows mild signs of neurodiversity. I wouldn't say he is hyperlexic, but he was a free reader by end of reception, and could read and understand Harry Potter/Famous Five by the middle of Y1. But he didn't start reading until he was 3 and I overtly taught him. The things he does that people comment on are his obsession with comparing things. He will write very very long lists of dinosaurs/animals in order of speed or size. He monologues about these (kind of boring) facts to anyone who will listen. He has big emotions, struggles to regulate (although we're working together on that), and doesn't always connect with his peers. Can't understand why they wouldn't be into what he's into. However, this post isn't about him, but if DD2 is ND, she'd be in good company :)

She has low sleep needs in general and I agree with pp that a 2 hour nap is most likely far too much. If my DD had 2 hours in the day at this age then we’d be lucky to get 9 hours at night which would be 8-5. I’d cap it at 45 mins as the long naps are likely supporting the early morning wakes.
It will be painful, but I'm going to start capping the naps. It will be painful, as nap times are my main period of productivity, but I think it'll be worth it.

RE breastfeeding, it's not just twice a day when she's with me all day. She also feeds when she's feeling overstimulated. When we go to a new place where there are lots of people, she will ask and ask for a feed. If it were a choice between having a magic answer that comforts her in an instant vs. better sleep, I'd feel selfish to choose the latter. I've decided to go until she self-weans, or until she's 3, whichever comes soonest. When she's finished, I can go on roaccutane (I'm under a dermatologist for acne) and have my eyes lasered, so the breastfeeding really isn't something I'm clinging to for my own benefit.

sorry if you mentioned it somewhere else but is she potty training?
I have to admit here that she was showing lots of signs of being ready for potty training just before she turned 2. She hates the potty and used the toilet. She could take off her own clothes to do it. It wasn't consistent, but I'm worried we let that window pass because it was a bit of a chaotic time.

Would you be willing to offer an additive free squash We rarely have juice in the house to be honest (bad hosts. You can have water, coffee, wine, or that's it) She does love squash though, and will finish off a fruit shoot at a party very quickly. I'll look into this as maybe she's waking dehydrated and that's why she's so desperate for a feed in the morning.

@maureenponderosa I don’t have any new advice for you as all’s been covered but just wanted to say that you’re one of the loveliest posters I’ve seen. So polite and thoughtful. I hope you get your little one to sleep for longer 🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻

Might be worth considering smoothies, oat milk or fruit juice watered down as your own style of squash if you are trying to avoid store bought squash. If she tends towards dry crunchy foods she'll need a higher water intake. She is getting breast milk though which will adapt to her needs naturally. I think the breastfeeding could be a factor in her food intake but then in turn I would say that her intake is likely fine and not a factor in her sleep iyswim.

If she sees you going through to her or light in room as "morning time" that will be a tricky fact to challenge. If you alter her definition of morning to the grow clock or even a specific number on a clock she may respond better. Maybe it's time to ditch the cot and child proof her room.