2 YR OLD STILL NOT SLEEPING THROUGH - AT END OF TETHER

[twotimestrouble]

HELP! DS2 is 25 months. He has never (and I mean NEVER) slept through the night. He doesn't sleep in the day either unless we happen to go on a car journey, where he nods off.

At 22 months he moved to a bed and being mobile he now wants to come in with us. He is a nightmare to settle down at night. Then when he wakes, if we ignore him he hangs onto the stairgate across his bedroom door and bangs his head again and again, and gets more and more hysterical. CC doesn't work (we tried it at 10 months and recently again - but he can go on for hours. DH says no more). He still has a bottle in the middle of the night and we have tried everything to stop this. If we pick him up and he comes to bed he goes straight to sleep.

It is really impacting our lives. We are so tired. His GPs won't have him to stay. We can't go out for the evening because he wakes at 11pm more or less every night. Even if I get him back to bed at this upset, he'll wake later to try and get into our bed. He wakes at 6am every morning.

He is an incredibly lively little boy. Very very boisterous against his peers. So he is exhausting in the day. I need to do something about nights. Or can someone tell me they do grow out of this?

My dd is quite a bit younger so no good advice sorry, but you have my sympathy. You must be knackered. Do you think he might be over tired? If he doesn't sleep in the day and is very active. I struggle to get dd to nap unless I take her out in the buggy, so most days I do just take her out for a walk at naptime. If I don't she is awful. Could you go for a well-timed drive at the same time each afternoon to get him to sleep, see if that helps with the evening settling?

Also could you live with cosleeping for a while? If it gets you more sleep and helps him think of bedtime as a happy secure time, it might be worth it in the long run. Sorry I don't have much practical experience, these are just thoughts. Hope it gets better soon.

Wow twotimestrouble you have my sympathy. Not much help to offer but to say he is a little boy now...perhaps replace bottle in middle of night with cup of ice cold milk? Or maybe a bottle of water? (as in to tasty hot milk etc)

He should be sleeping through but I suspect you know this already! Do you have him in a routine? Both of mine have been in routine and DD1 slept through from 12 weeks, DD2 from 9 weeks. Not meaning to sound smug - just saying it can be done!!

Obviously, if he is used to getting to sleep in your bed this is something you're going to have to work hard to change. Maybe one of you sleep in his room for a few nights so he knows your bed is no longer an option?

I would put him back into a cot and go back to controlled crying.Its hard but you must be firm and your son will learn to sleep.Dont give up.It will only take a few awful nights and you should be able to break the spell.

Good luck and heres to a future of peaceful nights

Oops yes and I echo that,loose milk in night as its giving him reason to wake.He doesnt need it,offer water.

i know it can be difficult but you must stop ds coming into your bed. the older he gets the more difficult it will be.be strong if you dont put your foot down now it will affect his sleep when he is older. everytime he wakes wanting to get into your bed, go and give him a quick cuddle and put him straight back in his own bed. if he gets straight up again give him no cuddle just say goodnight give him a kiss and straight back to bed. anytime after that give him 1 kiss, don't talk to him just put him straight back to bed. the first few nights he may scream the house down and you may put him back to bed 100's of times. but it is all about breaking the cycle. your ds thinks that if he cries or bangs his head he gets to get into bed with mum and dad. As for the head banging you must ignore this behaviour, if you feel he will hurt himself tie something soft across the top a towel a blanket, anything will do, but always ignore. it is just attention seeking. Stop the bottle at night if you want put a beaker of water next to his bed if he gets thirsty, use a night light so he can see where it is. you may have to show him the beaker to start off with. with real perseverance you can get your bed back. 1 week of being really tough is all it would take. i hope some of this helps. let me know how it goes.

crumbs i really feel for you.
Every one will give you different advice, i'd say go on your gut instinct as this is always right.
maybe he just want to sleep in your bed, as this makes him feel safe and secure. i personally dont think there is anything wrong with bed sharing (a dog doesnt sleep away from its puppies) but it is personal and if you feel this is wrong and need him in his own bed. increase daytime food so you know he isnt hungry for the milk in the night. then do what ever your heart, or the advice you have read feels right for you and your family.
then stick to it with out feeling guilty- good luck xx I hope you get a good nights sleep soon

I have 4 children, one of them was a terrible sleeper at 4 we took her to a cranial osteopath and it changed her!!! I do agree though that you need to ditch the milk completey. I would suggest a mattress in his room and you start by teaching him he must sleep in his room etc etc

How does he settle in the evening, do you have to stay with him etc?? My bad sleeper struggled to get to sleep and the cranial fixed that and it stopped her waking up 3 times per night! However my dd had no sleep associations nor did she want to sleep with us, she would wake up be wide awake come to visit me I would tell her it's night time and go back to sleep and she would always try to so I knew it wasn't a "control" issue IYSWIM

Thanks for all your advice.

It's funny because DS2 shares a bedroom with DS1 (aged 4) as we thought this would help. DS1 always slept through no problem at all (and sleeps through all the screaming as well).

We are really firm when we put him to bed. We walk away despite all the shouting. We only intervene when he (frequently) gets into his brother's bed and hits him!

He then dozes for 4 hours or so. I can hear him shout out a few times but we ignore. He really kicks off about the time we go to bed (11pm-midnight). It's not that we wake him, it's just habit. If I sit with him he'll settle. But an hour or so later he's at it again. As I said, unless he then comes to bed with us he goes ballistic.

DH and I fundamentally disagree with what happens next. He agrees with you babywearingmum. He works a stressful high pressure job and wants to sleep. He can't see anything wrong with co-sleeping and just brings him into bed. He'd like him not to wake but ultimately doesn't care if he is bed with us. To be honest I quite like it but I know we have to sort this out.

The milk is a comfort not a hunger thing as he only wants it from a bottle. Have tried reducing, or offering water etc and all hell breaks loose - night after night!!

Chocpeanut, we thought about going back to the cot but he didn't sleep through in that either. Plus he can get out easily which is why we moved to a bed.

I half had it in mind that when he was older I could explain and he would understand that he had to stay in his own bed but is this assumption wrong???

PS Cargirl - what did the cranial osteo diagnose? I wonder if it is worth a try in our case?

WOW THIS IS LONG!

Blimey you have my sympathy but i have this with my dd who is now 2.2 & still wakes through the night.

My dd wakes for a bottle of milk, this is for comfort not hunger too because she only wants it in a bottle she is attached to the bottle.

Since we have moved i have put her into a bed, she still wakes in the night but is getting a tiny bit better like twice in the last 5 days she has slept through the night. Also last nigth she did wake & i managed to put her back into her bed without getting her a bottle of milk, this is a first but she went back to sleep.

She just wakes asking for her bottle, stands at her stairgate on her bedroom & asks then if no response starts to get louder & louder.

We are trying to break the cycle & have cut all bottles out i even brought 2 cup things to help which she seems to be ok with, i just need her to learn that if she wakes & wants a drink not to wake anyone up & that i will leave the cup in her room.

It's hard work but you have to try to break the cycle, i would say if your dh is taking your ds2 into your bed then he is getting mixed signals you either allow it or you don't & don't let him into bed with you at all, he will then learn he will not be coming into your bed at all.

Good luck & having borken sleep every night is a nightmare especially at this age.

my ds was like this if you go to gp or speak to hv you can get a sleep theapist to come out and give you advise

Thanks scooby and bubbla - good to know I'm not alone.

Bubbla - seen our HVs but all they do is advocate CC. Wonder if they'd let me liaise with a sleep therapist.

Scooby maybe you're right about leaving the milk beside the bed. I might be trying to do too many things - cut out milk, stop using bottle and saying can't co-sleep. Think I need to start with the co-sleeping and then reduce the bottle maybe.

DS2 is just so difficult in so many areas and being tired out doesn't help with managing him during the day. He doesn't eat either but that's another long story.

i always put cup of milkm in bed with my ds as i find if he doesnt drink his milk he doesnt settle also was told to give him slice of toast before bed as supposed to settle them and not sure if it toast but he has started sleeping through

my gp refferred me to sleep therapist one trick was to put him in bed and sit with my back to himat door aqfter story ignore all efforts to get your attention

if going on to long say ssshhh sleep time and just sit there lights off however you would put to sleep my ds used to take about 10 mins most to go off once i was there

you would do that for about a week rhen move further away

also have a ready bed in my ropom as she said in middle of night to put him in that instead of getting up and down to him then he gets used to not sleepinbg with me

now he goes 4 out of 7 nights in his own bed he is 2.10 so taken me this long although in between we found he wasnt comfortable in junior bed so got single bed and huge improvement

nights he does wake he goes straight into ready bed and gets up at 7 so longer than in his own bed we have got used to it now as he goes streaight off once in ready bed if plays up we say do you want your own bed or ready bed he'll say ready bed and we say well only if your good

but now he has got used to it and settles straight away

sorry for spelling im rubbish when typing quick

I think the readybed is a great idea but has it helped break the pattern of waking? I can see ds waking just the same and then trying to get him to settle in other bed.

Go to the GP and request a referral to a sleep specialist - they will come up with a programme to help you. You can't go on like this. We've had months on end of disturbed nights - but two years with the amount of disturbance you're talking about would have sent me over the edge by now. A sleep therapist would also be the best port of call to enable you and your DH to agree to the same path.

it stopped the frequent waking the frequent waking appeared to be because i wasnt there when he awoke so in ready bed he knew i was neatr and slep soundly and still does

we used to cheat instead of sitting on his floor when he awoke in night we would but him straight in ready bed and he'd sleep all the way through it was so nice

sleep therapist allowwed me to do this as i was so tired

gradually with quiet time from 6 gentle play such as colouring or reading play doh etc then 6.30 pj's on he wont have bath before bed as this causes him to wake all through night, toast

7 in bed with cup of milk and story for 10 mins {therapist said no more than 10 mins} then kiss and cuddle good night lots of praise for being in bed then you can sit near bed with back to him then each night graduaally move further away

when you get to point your comfortable to leave the room you leave for 32 mins go in ssshhh bedtime then every 5 then every 10 never leave more than 10 mins she said as once they are in that state very hard for them to wind down and you dont want them to associate bedtime as distressing

and if needing to come in your room on ready bed away from being next to you as they have security of being near you but also your breaking the habit of needing to sleep with you

best night sleeps i had when he was in ready bed thats why if he wakes now usually 3 am i'll put in ready bed but used to be every 2 hrs

that should be 2 mins not 32 lol i'm rubbish when i'm tired

it did seem to make so much difference with his sleep it got to point i coulod put him to bed in ready bed and he'd sleep through with me being able to sit and watch tv in other room may had few bad nights where id have to lay on my bed until he fell asleep but then if he awoke he could see me and never bothered me

i had ready bed down side of my bed next to me it is a wonderful thing i couldnt function at one stage through tiredness and it caused me so much problems with ds as we would both be so ratty next day

as sson as he slept in that we were both sleeping all night so stuck with it

as his got older he doesnt like it as much and does manage to sleep 4 out of 7 in his bed although he falls asleep around 8 to go all night if he falls asleep any earlier he wakes through night anfd then sleeps in ready bed

I would do one thing at a time. .. if he sleeps well in your bed - get him sleeping there 1st then reduce the milk. then maybe pop a matress on the floor in your room when he settled sleeping there pop him back in his room. this may take a month of doing it gradually - but slow and steady wins the race!!! !!! co-sleeping in this country is frowned upon but the rest of the world it is normal- who is right...? the rest of the world or us!!! !!! there is a book by dr sears and sears on sleep. its BRILLIANT take a look at your local bookshop -no need to buy it just have a flick through. good luck. hope you sort it the best way for you and your family. xxx xxx

Thanks bubbla and BWM.

Bubbla how did you stop your son climbing into your bed? I can imagine when we bring DS into the room when he wakes he'll just keep tryingto get in with us.

BWM you're quite right. A lot is social pressure because TBH if we put him in our bed at the start of the night I bet he wouldn't even wake. Still I think it is a good thing for him to go down beside his big brother.

Am going to take your advice weegle and get an appointment with a sleep therapist. I'm also going to have a go at some of the techniques you've all mentioned.

Good job I don't need sleep.

i just said when evr he got in its there pointing at ready bed or your own bed

he used to say own bed but cry but id take him through to know i was serious then say right ready bed then and put him in had to do few times every now and then but he didnt try again as he knew id take him out of my room

i always settled him in his own bed so he knew he had to sleep there but moved him through when woke later

he gradually slept lomger in his own bed and now sleeps 4 out 7 nights so huge difference had few set backs where had to put to bed in ready bed

but always tried to settle in own bed first

once you stop them from sleeping next to you its a case of once they can settle themselves its ok but has taken me along time but ready bed has been a great thing as we finally got sleep we all needed

may not be conventional but it worked for us and sleep therapist was happy with what we chose to do and slowly but surely we have made great progress

Well slow progress is beginning to be made. We have now gone two nights without milk. Hasn't stopped him waking or getting v upset that it's not available, but I've held firm. At weekend intend to blow up the ready bed and see how that goes.

DH was abroad last night and I had to get up three times before I finally caved and let him come into bed with me.

have exactly same with my 2 1/2 yo DD2. She will go to sleep fine, but wake about 12am and come into my bed. This isn't a problem during week when DH is away but is quite hard at week end when she tries to kick him out of bed. But all of a sudden this week, she has spent three nights in her own bed and even slept til 7am. Last night she was back with me again. It is so hard when she is on the go all day demanding so much attention, then you don't even get a break at night. My DH is no help because she screams blue murder if he tries to settle her at night although they are best friends during the day. I have come to the conclusion that some kids are just like this. i have tried all methods and just take the path of least resistance and let her sleep with me, although i am probably being very naive to think she will grow out of it. We can but hope!!

drivinmecrazy dot he mattress on floor or ready bed in your room ds knows now to sleep on that if he comes in as was really disturbing my dp and my sleep

now we get bed to ourselves and if ds needs to come in he settles and sleeps soundly on ready bed

twotimestrouble if you intend to just bring him into your room until you intend to do ready bed and sleep training just bring him through if it means you'll sleep well otherwise he'll think his won and will reactt his way all the time

settle him in own bed when wakes put in your bed to save stress and arguments at weekend set up ready bed but still settle in own bed then if he wakes straight in ready bed

we had ds in ready bed good few weeks from 8pm then gradually he started sleeping longer in his bed now if he wakes he can go as late as 3am before having to go on ready bed

but we do have 4 nights where our room is our own we just found it easier to put him in ready bed as it meant we would get no disturbed nights

but it worked and stress levels dropped and now setting himself to his own routine we always stood strong on settling to bed in his own bed whether or not it would be for an hour or less

just so he knows thats the place he goes first good luck

my ds has cup of milk and water in bed with him of a night time

driven, sounds like we have two just the same!

bubbla, thx for all your advice, it's been brill. Hope ready bed works as well with our DS2. Our bed is an antique American one, really high and v big - so quite imposing if you are at floor level. Worried he'll get freaked laying down beside it and will just keep trying to climb in. Still will definitely try.

i gave my ds a novelty torch so if he was afraid of dark he could use it maybe put alittle night light remember just lots of praise and if wont settle be cruel to be kind right back to your bed then if you dont want ready bed

then when at his bed say if you sleep in ready bed you can be in mummys room i had to do this few times but took less time than trying to settle in own bed good luck xx