9 months and still won't sleep

[TeainanIV]

This isn't the first time I've posted about my DD and her horrendous sleep... and it's only gotten worse. I'm at the end of my tether now, cannot cope and it's make me so angry and anxious. She just does not sleep unless on my boob or on me. She is incredibly clingy, to the point she becomes hysterical if my partner tries to settle her. We used to at least be able to bounce her to sleep, but now thats impossible and the only way to get her down is feeding. Even then moving her is difficult as she immediately wakes and either latches on or screams blue murder until back on. This is the same whether it's day or night - I can never just pop her in her cot, she just screams and screams.

I'm beyond exhausted, I feel dizzy most days through sheer exhaustion. I am angry and snappy all day, I've got no patience left by night time and I hate myself but some nights I feel so much anger towards her. I would never ever hurt her but it scares me how angry I feel - I'm generally a very placid and patient person so not used to feeling this way. Nothing in the house is getting done because she is on me all the time - naps are on me or in the pram because ant other way and she just doesn't sleep!

My relationship feels in tatters - she's still in our room, neither of us are sleeping and my partner gets upset as she is hysterical if he tries to settle her. He gets annoyed at me for feeding her to sleep but the alternative is screaming for hours on end. We've tried CIO, controlled crying etc but all end up with her hysterical and making herself choke she's that worked up. The only thing that calms her is the boob.

Sleep training has been made harder as our neighbours have complained about the noise and now completely ignore us out of the house as its annoyed them that much! I hate myself for letting it bother me as she's a baby and can't help it, but it's only added to the anxiety of night times knowing not only is it effecting us but them too.

I don't know what to do, I feel like a failure in terms of her sleep. I feel like I've created this problem and now it's so deep it's becoming impossible to fix. I worry about her future sleep if this is what she's like now and I genuinely don't think I could go through this again if we were to have another baby.

I feel so pathetic writing this, this is one of many threads of written with the same issue and I honestly thought it would've improved by now but it's just gotten worse and worse. If you've made it this far thank you!! This is such a rambling thread, please go easy on me in the comments - really at a low point

@LapinR0se I'm not sure I agree with you there, a banana and peanut butter toast is supper for us. She is small for her age and doesn't eat huge portions as she fills quickly. Plus she struggles with silent reflux with her allergies and this can be aggravated after meals. I would be interested to see a routine, I feel like we have a good one at the moment but it's clearly not working as she isn't sleeping well so would be keen to see others routines.

Ok so at 9 months I would do this:
7am wake and milk feed
8am breakfast eg porridge and blueberries, toast and scrambled egg
9.30-10am nap
11.30am lunch with protein eg salmon fillet, fish pie, spag bol, chicken risotto. Dessert Greek yoghurt
1-2.30 nap
3pm milk feed and a couple rice cakes
5pm dinner, carb based eg pasta with 7-veg sauce, pumpkin risotto. Dessert fruit purée
6pm bath
6.45 milk feed
7pm bed

I think you need to toughen up and sleep train her. It may be 3 nights of hell but it will be so much better afterwards. (But it sounds like every night is pretty hellish anyway).

You can get a sleep consultant for £100-200. It's not that much money in the scheme of things. You are probably spending more on your hen do.

Or otherwise I suggest reading Andrea Grace's gentle sleep book. Available second hand for about £2.

Your baby's problem is that she is used to being fed to sleep and needs to learn to go to sleep without your help. Her problem is not due to hunger or bad routine etc. So don't waste your time messing about with those things.

Yes and no @SnackSizeRaisin. Sleep training will only work if your child is not hungry, over or under tired, or sick/in pain.
So it makes sense to rule out the first two with a decent routine.

I don't know what to do, I feel like a failure in terms of her sleep. I feel like I've created this problem and now it's so deep it's becoming impossible to fix. I worry about her future sleep if this is what she's like now and I genuinely don't think I could go through this again if we were to have another baby.

Just to add, this isn't your fault and it's not impossible to fix. Her future sleep will probably be fine. Your sleep deprivation is making everything seem much worse than it is. But seriously I think you should just go for it with controlled crying. Commit to it fully for 3 nights.

Yes and no @SnackSizeRaisin*. Sleep training will only work if your child is not hungry, over or under tired, or sick/in pain.
So it makes sense to rule out the first two with a decent routine.*

A child that is breastfed on demand, and eating solids to appetite and gaining normal amounts of weight is not going to be too hungry to get to sleep. Being over tired is kind of unavoidable if you are doing sleep training and it's impossible to get into a good routine if you have a baby that constantly wakes. Being undertired is again unlikely in this scenario. Sick or painful is one for the GP to rule out. I would agree that it's worth seeing both the GP and health visitor if in any doubt.

I really don't agree with others who have said this is normal or implied it's something that will improve on its own and I also don't agree that sleep training (I.e cry it out) will work and it sounds like it wouldn't work for your LG a anyway as she becomes so hysterical.

At 9 months it's not normal for her to only sleep on you or when feeding. And it's totally normal for you to want her sleep to be better. you must be utterly desperate and half deranged with lack of sleep by this point. I've got a 6 month old and a 2 year old so I do know how terrible it can make you feel.

A few ideas or tips to try:

• I would take her to the doctors to rule out intolerance or illness as a first port of call
• sign up for an online sleep course you chime with- Just Chill Mama would be a good place to start. Her courses are £45 or so I think.
• start to look at sleep associations and sleep environment as well as routine. Her sleep space should be dark, use constant white noise (there is. £15 machine off Amazon that plays constant white noise that I use for both of mine) and when you put her down you should try the same mini routine each time- change nappy, into sleeping bag, short story or song.
• just putting her into her cot and leaving her is not going to work initially as she is so used to being held for sleep and/or fed to sleep. You need to stay close to her. My little ones have always liked being put to sleep on their side- I would lie next to them with them in their next to me and hold their top hand and Pat their bottom at the same time. When they were learning to fall asleep on their own it may take a long time for them to fall asleep but it never needed crying or upset.
• I'm not sure her taking a bottle is the answer to all your prayers as it doesn't sound like she's hungry it sounds like you've got a highly sensitive baby who has a very strong sleep association with boob and with you.
• it will take a bit of time and patience but it will be worth it in the end.

Sending you lots of support and love. It sounds like you aren't coping (and who would be?!) I think it's time to take control and work towards some positive steps to improve everything.

First of all, it might be helpful if you explain what you mean by her still not sleeping, so we can see the extent of the issue.

Some people have unrealistic expectations of how a small child sleeps, and are shocked that they aren't sleeping through at this age.

At the other end of the scale, is a baby that constantly demands a nipple in their mouth to sleep. Or who wakes up every 30 minutes etc.

First of all, it might be helpful if you explain what you mean by her still not sleeping, so we can see the extent of the issue.

It is very clearly explained in the OP

My son has cmpa. Have you cut dairy out of your diet? Have you tried cutting soya out. I expressed milk as ds did not like dairy free formulas. I'd go to bed at 7pm dh would see to ds and give a bottle. Dh would go to bed at midnight and I would take over. I'll be honest he didn't sleep through until I stopped feeding in the night.

Lack of sleep is the worst and has an impact on everything.
What methods of sleep training have u tried and how consistent with it were you?
I remember doing it at simalar age but I had to build up to it lol mentally prepare myself and get dh on board so we stuck to it no giving in. (Easier said than done I know!) But consistency and staying calm is key.
Took 3 days for us but was worth those 3 days of feeling so bad about it to come out the otherside.

Hi OP. I have been where you are and it does get better, I promise. My DD had and still has the kind of temperament where any sort of sleep training or separation basically would result in her crying to the point of making herself sick. I found it very frustrating to be told to "just" sleep train her or "just" do xyz. Some kids just don't cope with stuff like that until they feel ready.

The turning point for me was getting my DH more involved. Lots of 'special time' one to one with him and gradually I just left bedtime duties to him and would disappear myself. It did take time and I wonder if part of it was just my DD developing and having a little more understanding. She did wake very frequently and I'd end up co-sleeping eventually, but the miracle happened when we night weaned at around 16 months. My DH would deal with all her night wakings and after a few days she just stopped waking!

I still have to feed her to sleep for her one nap of the day (she is very similar to your LO in this sense) and I am now trying to change this too and wean her off completely, but trying to do it as gently as possible and speaking to her loads about it (she's 18 months now so understands a lot more than before!).

It really is tough and I honestly don't know how I survived on such little and crap sleep, but it gets better. I found comparing my situation to others didn't help but totally understand why we all do it :) I've just accepted that some kids will not sleep independently or without certain comforts until they are ready, so I don't really feel guilty for instilling 'bad habits'. You do what you need to do to survive the day (and night) as a parent and sometimes we really are just on survival mode! Please don't be too hard on yourself. DM me if you want to chat or vent x

@Avonacha thank you for such a kind message, it meant a lot reading that in the early hours of this morning!! Our little ones sound VERY similar in terms of sleep! There is no way my DD will cope with sleep training - we've tried a few and, as you said, she did indeed make herself sick!! It was horrendous. Someone mentioned the Just Chill Baby course, I had such high hopes for it but unfortunately it just didn't work for our girl - she is incredibly strong willed it's mad!!! I'm hopeful it'll work one day and we plan on reattempting at 10 months, but for now it's a no go.

I'm staggered daily by how little sleep I survive on, although it does fill me with dread for when I go back to work!!!

Can I ask, did you express milk for your DH to feed her before bed? I think we might trial this with my partner. I'm worried about when I go on my hen do next month she'll scream all night for him!! Want her to start getting used to her Dad doing night times for a bit before then! Xx

@autienotnaughty I'm dairy, soy and egg free! Although our paediatrician has now advised I reintroduce egg and dairy and start my DD on both ladders!!! I'm sure that'll do even more wonder for her sleep 🙈

Oh it’s so tough I know how you feel, both of mine were awful sleepers at around the same age. I tried many times to do controlled crying but they would get too upset. I revisited it again when one was 14 months and the other was 11 months and then it worked very quickly and I truly believe it’s because they were then ready. I know it’s absolutely hideous when you’re in it but at that time I just did anything I could to survive and kept trying the sleep training until eventually one day it worked.

Also I wouldn’t waste money on a sleep trainer, there is so much information online they really won’t tell you anything you can’t find from a quick search on google or mumsnet.

Honestly I could've written this post. My little girl turned 1 lasted a week. And I've been battling her sleep since Xmas.

She's now sleeping in her cot and waking 3x a night. 1 time before I'm in bed and 2x in the night.

I still feed her to sleep but put her in the cot. Than pat and shhhh her to sleep.

It definitely gets better.

Feeding to sleep is natural, as is cosleeping.

She is little and dependent on you.

Why don't you put a floor bed in her room and co sleep in there?

Sneak out as an when and get sleep in your bed if you want, or just succumb to the fact she is a baby and this won't last.

CIO won't reach her to "self settle" - do you manage to "self settle" if you're upset/vulnerable or would you like support? Consider answering that again when have only spent a few months on a new planet and only trust/know one or two people.

I'm sorry if this reads harsh, I don't intend it to be but babies aren't meant to slot into our lives, they change them and WE need to adapt, not them.

*CIO and Contriolled Crying teaches them you don't respond to their needs, not to "self settle"

Needs don't become any lesser at night.

Consider if you would "train" during the day using CIO or controlled crying - seems mean right?

But parents do it at night, prioritising their own needs over their children's.

Emotional needs are just as important as physical, and so demonstrating that you no longer respond to said needs at night simply teaches the baby you aren't returning.

@girlabouthome

*CIO and Contriolled Crying teaches them you don't respond to their needs, not to "self settle"

Needs don't become any lesser at night.

Consider if you would "train" during the day using CIO or controlled crying - seems mean right?

But parents do it at night, prioritising their own needs over their children's.

Emotional needs are just as important as physical, and so demonstrating that you no longer respond to said needs at night simply teaches the baby you aren't returning.

This is just crap which is spouted to make parents feel worse about themselves. There are absolutely no studies that show a negative effect and plenty of anecdotal evidence to show that it’s fine. You cannot wipe out the strong attachment bonds built over months and years with a few nights of returning to your child over time periods but letting them cry. It also saves time for the child crying longer term, in many cases.

But parents do it at night, prioritising their own needs over their children's.

It’s perfectly valid to want to improve a child’s sleep for the benefit of the parents. A happy, well rested parent is a good thing for a child.

I really wish people wouldn’t spout this rubbish when it’s just not true and makes parents just feel worse about themselves

Babies don’t self comfort in isolation, instead if left to cry alone they learn to SHUT DOWN in face of distress - stop growing, stop feeling, stop trusting (Henry and Wang 1998)

Consider what sleep training IS, and by what measure it WORKS.
Your baby stops crying, and goes to sleep as they know you won’t return.
Not signalling (crying) is NOT self soothing and is described in literature as LEARNED HELPLESSNESS.

There is a very big difference between “no evidence of harm” and “evidence of no harm”, it is NOT ok to let your baby cry - day or night.

If this post triggers you, you need to ask yourself why.

If this post triggers you, you need to ask yourself why

It doesn’t “trigger” me but I’m very conscious of other women reading who, some of whom have said they were so tired they nearly crashed cars / had PND through sleep deprivation etc etc and that they may be feeling terrible at the prospect of sleep training and your type of posts make them feel worse. I think we should stop the guilt trip and let parents do their own research on it rather than using high emotive language designed to make parents feel bad about doing something which is often last case scenario. No parent lets their child cry out of pleasure.

Feeling guilty at the prospect of sleep training is the right way to feel - because instinctively you know it's wrong.

I too encourage independent research, and I think if people did, they wouldn't consider sleep "training" as a ethical option.

Hi OP, on the ladders - I’m surprised to see a dietician encouraging you to try them before your daughter is 1. I was dairy, soya, egg, and wheat-free, along with a few random things. I did find it hard to separate the reaction to re-introducing allergens when sleep was so poor.

Please do listen to your instincts that your baby won’t respond well to CIO/CC methods. You know her best.

Hi OP we don’t have experience with allergies but my LO is 10 months and we’ve finally started seeing some sleep improvements by having DH feed him expressed milk in the night from a bottle.

We found that if DH did all the night wake ups with a bottle then they become shorter and less often so we all got more sleep!

We still have to cosleep sometimes if he won’t settle at all but those nights are few and far between.

I express milk anyway as I’ve been back at work for a while but we did have some advice that it was okay to water down the breakmilk we give him at night, to make it go further and so DH could do more wake ups if needed.

DS is really quite big for his age though and eats/drinks very well during the day so there were no concerns over his calorie intake.

I also feed him in the lounge before bed and not in his bedroom. I think that made a difference too! We do let him winge for a bit in his cot when he first goes to bed as he falls off to sleep but not during the night wake ups.

9 months is pretty peak teething time too. Some babies deal with it very badly. We were very PFB with our first child and very resistant to calpol. Faffed around with teething powders and other herbal stuff. She was a shocking sleeper too so by the time I went back to work at 8 months I was a walking zombie.

A friend with two kids very kindly sat us down and pointed out that if we had a constant toothache we'd take some bloody paracetamol occasionally.
I also weaned her off the boob around the same time. She was a good eater, had always been mixed fed and was now rejecting the bottle in favour of the comfort and cuddles. I had to travel for work so couldn't keep feeding her anyway. It really helped to break the link between food and comfort.

There are other ways to get calcium into her. If she won't take a bottle you can substitute in other ways so don't stress.
I would change your routine if you can. I will be a harder week for your partner but worth it in the end. This must also be making your marriage difficult with two of you constantly shattered so it will be worth the effort