Can't settle - why??

[ellasmum]

I hope that someone can help / give me advice!!

My 9 week old has recently started waking up approx. 45 minutes after I put her down to sleep at about 7.00pm. I am not sure whether it is because she has not had enough food before she goes down ( she is often v.v. sleepy so doesn't feed for very long) or whether it is just her inability to settle on her own.

She only seems to be able to go to sleep if she is feeding / suckling or if she is in her pushchair.

I am currently going in to her room and feeding her again after she wakes up - should I be leaving her to cry? I have tried going in to comfort her but this makes absoloutely no difference. It can take up to 2 hours for her to go off to sleep and sometimes she seems so wide awake that I give up and she doesn't go off to sleep until after 10.00pm.

I know this question covers old ground but I cannot find specific help on any other conversations.

I read that this waking after 40 - 50 minutes is when they are changing sleep mode from REM sleep (light sleep) to non REM sleep (deep sleep). My DD did the same for months. Most times she would resettle herself. I would usually give her 5 mins max. Very occasionally she wouldn't and I would have to burp her or change nappy.

Did your baby cry really intensely when she woke up - I have read about the change in sleep type but didn't really think it could result in such 'bad' crying.

Also - really stupid question - what does DD / DS stand for. Am a bit of an amateur re. the messaging thing.

Yes, sometimes the cry was as if she had woken up and gone where the hell am I? Other times it was just a grizzle. They need to learn to resettle themselves at this time. Of course if the pitch of crying changed I would go immediately to her.

Ellasmum, its dear/darling son or daughter, wife husband, partner etc. MIL - mother in law ( FIL father, SIL sister etc) IMO In my opinion,

HTH (hope this helps)

Hi, Ellasmum. Our 4 month old dd is doing the same thing, except that she goes to sleep at 2 a.m.! I went to a talk on sleep yesterday and from all the other mums there I gathered that this sort of thing is really normal (although perhaps not the two a.m. bit!) Anyway, the nurse that did the talk agrees with Reagar that you shouldn't leave a young baby to cry for more than 5 mins, and I find that our dd gets in such a state if I don't go to her straight away that she doesn't settle at all. The best advice that I've been given is go with your instinct -9 weeks is still very young and she may need the extra feeds for a growth spurt. For me, I've found that if dd is going through a difficult phase the best thing is to go with it, and find ways of working round it. The vast majority of the other mums yesterday said that their babies really began to get into a more settled pattern at 12 weeks. (Our dd has had a colic problem which is why she is taking longer, I think.) If she likes to suckle you could try a dummy, it works for us and for so many other mums that I know. Also, we're using a book called "The No-cry Sleep Solution" by Elizabeth Pantley which is excellent; I've recommended this on mumsnet before! You can get it from Amazon.

Good luck!

Thanks for the info. Have tried a dummy but she doesn't always take it and infact often makes the situation worse.

I think I will just have to go with it and hope that she learns to settle herself soon.

I am hoping for a good night tonight as for some reason she has not slept at all today - must have been all the excitement of the football!!!

Meant to ask in previous message - advice needed on what to actually do when dd wakes up after 45 minutes. Should I pick her up? or just put a reassuring hand on her - usually try this and end up giving in and giving her the boob which works pretty well.

May perservere with dummy - how long did it take other dd / ds to take one. My dd seems to hate either type of dummy.

Also (feel like I am asking loads here) - she wakes up after 45 minutes into lunch time sleep and only finally settles again after extensive suckling which can take upto 1 hour - should I just give up and let her be awake? I am never sure whether I should then let her sleep for the remainder of the 2.5 hours or stick to the 2.30pm wake up.

Hope someone who has been there can help.

Thanks - a very grateful new (& slightly exhausted) Mum.

Hi

My ds who is now 5 months old went through exactly the same thing at about 9 weeks old for about 6 weeks...he would wake up after 45 minutes at lunchtime sleep and also at 7 and scream the place down.

I think at dinnertime it may have been a hunger thing combined with not being able to re-settle himself. In the end I would get him up and totally changed my rountine for him to adapt to him only sleeping for 45 minutes. Once I had done this life calmed down abit as I was not struggling to get him to sleep for longer. Then when I introduced solids he started to sleep better at dinnertime and now sleeps for about 2 hours. I was so shocked when he slept for longer than 45 mins as he hadn't done if for a couple of months but I think it was a case of the solids and him just being older that sorted it out.

As for the evening waking...in the end we just left him and he would resettle himself as us going in did no good at all and just wound him up. The evening waking problem didn't last as long as the lunchtime problem..I think it was just a phase.

HTH

Caroline

P.S No experience on dummies as ds won't take one as he is bf and doesn't get any comfort from dummy..he now sucks his hand and is moving towards thumb sucking I think

Hi, at that age, I'd usually let my son feed again if that was what he seemed to need. Otherwise, cuddle, pat, stroke forehead - whatever it took really - your ds is very young still and too young to be left to cry for more than five mins or so IMO. My ds has very rarely slept more than 45 mins at any nap since he was a newborn. Though this morning he slept for 1 1/2 hours in our bed - amazing. I've never had any success in getting him back to sleep so get him up for the greater happiness of both of us and sometimes he goes off later in the afternon. BTW, I've never found that a late nap puts him off going to bed at 7pm so have never worried about it.

Ellasmum,
She is trying to resettle herself. Give her some time to do this. ie. the 5 minutes but Yes, trust your instinct and go to her if the crying pitch changes. May be pick her up the first time (this goes against the books!) I used to find sometimes there was a burp, a quick peek at up at the nappy and do your quick reassurance good night/ day routine. Giving her boob will give her the wrong sleep associations (assuming she has feed well before you put her down). You can end up in a vicious cycle of over tired / hungry if you don't have a good routine.
ps. Have you read CLBB by Gina Ford?

ellasmum, I think 9 weeks is far too early to start leaving a baby to cry or to try doing sleep training etc. I exclusively breastfed my son on demand until 6 months. Up until that point he fed approximately every 2 hours day and night. In the first few months it took him over an hour to do his feeding so I seemed to be feeding all the time. At 6 months i started sleep training, solids and put him in his own bed all in the same week. It worked. But don't forget that, like us, our babies have greatly differing needs and personalities. My son (18 mo) only sleeps 10 hours a night with one 1-2 hour nap in the day. He has never slept more than this. My neighbor's son (16 mo.) sleeps 12-14 hours a night and one 2-3 hour nap during the day. He has always slept like this and in fact started sleeping through the night from 6 weeks.
If your daughter wakes up 45 min. after going to sleep and wants to feed/suckle, I would say let her for a least another couple of months. And if she wants to fall asleep in her pushchair, go for it (!)you will be greatly appreciative of this ability when she is older and you need to run errands/do shopping/have a life even at, god forbid, nap or bed time. I bet that this habit changes into another one in a few weeks and another one again a few weeks after that. Don't worry, you will finally get some sleep of your own when she is a teenager.

Ellasmum, the nurse that took the talk on sleep agrees with SofiaAmes, that young babies should be fed before anything else. Also in the experience of so many people that I've spoken to it seems that the little darlings get into a routine, we finally spot it, they change it!

From what I can remember of being a teenager I don't think my mum got a lot of sleep the either. Perhaps there's a window between their 10th and 12th birthdays when parents catch up for the next ten years.

Thanks for all the replies.

Reager - have tried CLB and am sort of doing it. Basically trying to stick to sleeping and feeding times but often dd needs to feed earlier than she suggests. I have read on another thread that it doesn't matter if they are not at the correct routine for their age - is this the case.

Also - is it imperative to stick to exactly what GF says? I cannot bear to wake dd up after it has taken forever to get her to sleep. I have not been waking her for the 10/10.30pm feed as she often goes through until 2.00am anyway. If I wake her she normally wakes up again at 2.00am so I am not really gaining anything by doing the waking up.

Any thoughts?

Not had a chance to read most of the discussion but to answer your last question.
IME - GF works best if you do it properly BUT you may need to follow the routine for a younger child than what yours is really. So 6 to 8 weeks for example.
It may be more difficult the first few days but babies tend to settle very well in them if other mumsnetter's experience is anything to go by.

The reason GF suggest to wake baby at 1030 is that at around 9 weeks her babies usually sleep through between 11PM and 7AM so if you don't wake your child at 1030 he will still wake through until 3 or 4 months old because he can't go without a feed between 7PM and 7AM.7

HTH

The main things I have taken from CLB which you MIGHT find help you are:
(i) keep an eye on the clock and don't let ds/dd go past 2 hours without very regular checks to see if s/he is ready for a nap (mine starts grizzling and/or gets very heavy lidded so quite easy to tell)
(ii) feed them as much as they will take during the day - but do try and leave decent gaps (at least 2 hours) between feeds so that each feed is a good feed (say at least 20 mins on the breast or 4oz by bottle at 9 weeks). The idea being if they fill up well during the day they won't be hungry at night.

Personally I don't worry too much if dd wakes after 45 mins - I just revert back to point (i) above to time the next sleep. I tried CLB but dd never slept the allotted length of time or at the right times so this has been my compromise. But I know other mothers whose babies fitted right it without a quibble.

I tried to wake dd at 10.30pm but she was so sleepy that I was lucky to get anything much into her and still woke at 3am. Eventually we just left her to sleep from about 7.30pm until whenever she wanted and slowly she worked from 3.30am to 4.30am to 5.30am and now (10 weeks) sometimes goes from about 8pm through to 7am! But I suspect we might be lucky and I am holding my breath for this to revert back at any time.

BTW she does seem to last longer than 2 hours before grizzling in the evening (just when you want her to go down!) - even with a bath / feed / music routine. So long as this doesn't go past about 8pm I'm not too worried - especially as the rest of the evening/night is ours!

HTH

LKM - it sounds like we have very similar babies!!

DD will not take much food if I wake her at 10.30pm so it seems pointless and as you said, she is able to go longer without sleep in the afternoon than the morning.

Do you bath dd at about 6.00pm or do it later - I have found that if I bath too early, I am sitting in her room for upto 2 hours waiting for her to get to sleep.

Looking back over the last nine months of ds's life, I would say that if I have one bit of advice it would be NEVER wake a sleeping baby!! Enjoy the peace, have a cup of tea, read a book, watch the afternoon movie, call a friend but DON"T wake the baby... they wake up quite enough by themselves. I agree about the 2hour thing and my son still goes to sleep exactly two hours after waking up (though obviously goes longer in the day now). My ds used to sleep through to 2am so I thought waking him at 11pm for a feed would extend his sleeping. It didn't. It just got him in the habit of waking at 11pm AND 2am aargh. Took him months and months to get out of it. I am now in favour of letting a young baby find its own sleeping pattern at night, until they are older and you can sleep train. Nine weeks is much too early for sleeptraining/leaving to cry for more than a few minutes IMO. Also, feeding to sleep is fine at that age IMO.

Who is advocating sleep training a 9 weeks old ? Just asking.
Thanks

Ellasmum,
Do try the 10.30pm feed. As Pupuce as mentioned the 2.00am feed will stop soon if you do the 10.30pm. For this feed I would express milk at 9.30pm and hop in to bed and leave the feeding up to husband. He was chuffed to be given total responsibility for waking, changing, feeding (he was disappointed when it was eventually dropped). I was glad of the early night. Happy mum = happy baby!

Reager - How interesting, I did the exact same thing !

no one has mentioned HOW you're baby gets to sleep. If she is used to a prop (i.e. dummy, suckling, pushchair etc) than all you are really doing is extending the agony for both of you. It's very difficult to get a baby to settle itself if it has no experience of first falling asleep unaided, and not through pure exhaustion. Even my ds, who I thought was a perfect clb started waking after 45mins at about this age. I discovered that I was waiting far too long to put him down. You know, he's in your arms, just dropping off, but you're worried that he'll wake up if you put him down so you wait until he's really asleep? BAD idea

Within 3 days of putting him down earlier, when he was drowsy but awake he'd learnt to resettle when he woke at 4am (around 10 weeks, I think) and soon after the lunchtime one followed. What I didn't realise is that when their eyes flick up into the back of their heads they are actually already in the first stages of sleep, not just dropping off!

It's hard at first for some babies, although you may be surprised as my son actually settled really easily (he'd just found his thumb, which was a godsend). I didn't have to leave him to cry more than a tiny bit, and you shouldn't leave you're dd for more than 5 mins, I agree. Try being consistant, never feeding to sleep etc. I bet you'll be surprised

Well said Manna- have you seen Pena recently ???

I am going to try putting her down Fingers crossed it works tonight!!

Meant to ask - I tried leaving dd to cry for 5 minutes in the hope that she would settle herself last night. After the 5 mins she was still crying so dh went in to try and comfort her, picked her up etc.. but to no avail - the crying just carried on. Should we just keep on comforting until she stops, even if it goes on for ages? I have been giving in and letting her suckle even though I don't think she is really hungry.

I suppose this will sort itself out once she has learnt to settle herself, but I am still unsure exactly how to go about doing it after I have put her down when she is slightly drowsy.

Thaanks for info so far!!

Good luck Ellasmum,

Perhaps this should be on a different thread, but as so many sleep/ baby routine experts seem to be reading this one, I thought I would see if you can help. Pupuce and Mears, you gave lots of good advice last time I posted re C.C. but for various reasons, it has not worked so far.

I started this 2 1/2 weeks ago and really thought I was getting somewhere (I even posted to that effect), but a few things happened which really threw the whole thing out of the window. Firstly d.s. got sick, about 6 days into the C.C., with a flithy cold, hacking cough and temp of 104F. Obviously, he was off all solids, wanted to be breastfed constantly and carried and cuddled all day long. Night times were chaotic and for 1 night, I ended up bringing him into our bed: mistake I know but what should I have done when he was so obviously poorly? Any advice?

Then, D.H. came home from a week away,tried to be supportive of routine (which I had gone back to after the 1 night's lapse), found he simply couldn't bear to hear d.s. crying. LOADS of tension in the matrimonial home! He says he will try to be more patient - it is not working. Then, after 13 nights of C.C routine, with d.s.usually waking up once about 3 and crying, D.H. had enough and brought baby into our bed, where he would not settle until fed to sleep. Have I completely wasted the last 2 weeks with this routine? Have others had blips/ failure like this?

Now, of course, d.s. senses that he has to cry longer and harder in order to be picked up, my 2 older kids who are at school and need their sleep are being woken at 3 a.m. by a howling baby who despite strokes and reassurance, will not go back to sleep for about 1 hour and everyone is cross and miserable.

I am quite prepared to try c.c again, but feel I need a few days off, if only to restore my sanity. Just to recap, d.s is 8 months old, takes solids well and is b/f, usually about 4 or 5 times throughout the day. He is also teething.

Any advice or suggestions would be very gratefully received.