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Original poster

STILL CRYING AFTER A MONTH OF CONTROLLED CRYING! HELP!

48 replies

Mixedbiscuits · 01/02/2007 21:10

SORRY TO SHOUT BUT I AM FEELING A BIT STRESSED!

We've been doing CC with our 21 month old DD now for over 30 nights. It was awful for the first week, she cried for a hour each night but then it reduced for a while. I think we had about 4 nights of no crying at all but then she went back to perhaps crying for anything up to 20 mins. The all of a sudden (nothings changed) shes gone back to crying for a hour again! I can't bear it! But we can't go back now... I dont know what to do... I go back in every 10 minutes, lie her down, kiss her, say good night. I can't see what the problem is. She's fed, dry, clean, cool/warm enough... I can't believe its not working for us... My mum keeps telling me to stick with it but its really stressful and i dread evenings. Even more so than when i used to have to sit at her cotside for a hour plus, whilst she jumped up and down, tossed and turned and generally laughed at me, until she finally dropped to sleep.
Even now shes bellowing from her cot, as she has for 40 minutes, HELP SOMEONE PLEASE!!!

OP posts:

Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

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SmileysPeople · 01/02/2007 22:34

I think it very much depends on how you feel about it MB.

If it feels 'wrong' to you and like it's going on too long, give up, try another tack. family bed or soemthing.

But if a sleep pattern, and learning to sleep ( which is what cc is essentially about) is important to you, then think it though, as Moondog says analyse hers and your behaviour, make a plan and see it through.
(Dh and I approached it like a war situation we kept regroupimg, to anlayse and adjust the plan). That's the other thing if it's proving very hard I think you need a partenr who also accepts and supports the approach, or you'll crumble.

To me it was imporatnat, my sleep and theirs, and it fitted with the overall family life and structure Dh and I felt we wanted, but it's not right or wrong.

slinx · 02/02/2007 08:20

Moondog, can I ask what you intend to do when you've qualified and what made you decide to follow this course. I've been looking at this kind of thing but there seem to be so many different courses around. Any websites that can help me decide or get info from?

moondog · 02/02/2007 08:53

Hi Slinx.
I am a speech and lang. therapist already but with a major interest in Autism and challenging behaviour.
I use some communication systems (eg PECS) which are based on Applied Behaviour Analysis and are extremely effective,hence my developing interest.

I am doing an MSc in ABA at Bangor uni,in North Wales (one of the few places in Europe that offers it at this level),but there are less demanding courses that you can take if you don't want to take it to this level.

Have a look at the BACB website here,which controls accreditation.

Here

SmileysPeople · 02/02/2007 09:12

I'm suprised Moondog that you're into ABA.

From the little I've gleaned of you so far...I'd have guessed you'd be more psychoanalytical or humanistic in psychological approaches.

Just shows, we take a little information, and then make huge assumptions.

Just thought that was interesting, hope no offense taken(smilimg at you in an unconditional supportive way)

(grinning at you in a flippant conspiratorial way)(sp..hope penadants aren't about)

SmileysPeople · 02/02/2007 09:12

Oh God...and hthat wasn't 'gnomic'

moondog · 02/02/2007 09:13

lol Smiley. No offence taken at all!
I suppose I used to be but after 12 years clinical experience,I don't think it is working for many things.
Not that ABA is perfect.
Noone has the answers tyo everything.

It just makes such sense.
So clear and logical.
Am a convert.

moondog · 02/02/2007 09:14

lol at gnomic references.
Who was it that said she cried when i called her gnomic???

SmileysPeople · 02/02/2007 09:18

Yeah yeah, don't tell everyone, I'm over it now

I used to be much more behavioural in my approach, but am moving more towards the humanistic. Actually in practise that means I'm using more cognitive /behaviour.

I think you're right though, no point just having interesting theories, you've got too have something that is useful to people.

Do you use ABA in your speech therapy work?

moondog · 02/02/2007 11:43

Oh it was you?!
lol
I am gonig back to work as salt next week after 3 year break (although have been doing some private work)I am looking forward to using it.

What do you do Smiley?

SmileysPeople · 02/02/2007 12:55

Yeah it was me. I'm a sensitive soul, especially late at night

ANYWAY, I'm a psychologist, I used to work as an Educational p[sychologist working in schools, but now have set up my own business and work independently.

moondog · 02/02/2007 13:05

Oh,interesting!
What sort of work do you do?

notsogummyanymore · 02/02/2007 13:06

sorry if i'm pointing out the obvious here but... is she actually tired enough to go to bed and sleep at the time you're putting her to bed?

SmileysPeople · 02/02/2007 13:12

Various at the momemt, and since self employed pretty much anything anyone asks me!

Mainly: employed by uni and colleges to do Sn/dyslexia assessemnts, do some counselling (mainly CBT) and also working for solicitors doing psychological assessments for court reports.

Only been doing it over a year now. I got fed up with the LEA, this is going well and I am enjoying it, but I do miss being part of a team and having colleagues.

Blimey never thouhgt I'd see the day when I said I missed team meetings!

Not enough to go back though.

moondog · 02/02/2007 13:14

I know what you mean.
I have loved the autonomy of doing stuff entirely alone but like you miss the camaraderie.
Have to tackle 'Agenda for Change' head on come Monday.

Zzzzzzzzz....

SmileysPeople · 02/02/2007 14:13

So has your ABA changed your SALT practice much?
Do you work with children in a clinical setting?

moondog · 02/02/2007 21:13

SP, I can see that you see a dichotomy.
ABA hugely misunderstood and considered very cold and unfeeling when nothing could be further from the truth.

I think there is room for a go with the flow approach and also one which is more controlled.
I would never advocate CC for a very young baby (happily fed mine day and night for a year) but a 21 month old is definitely old enough to learn how to sleep through.

I don't use ABA yet as am only a term into my course,but have used things like PECS a great deal.
I work with children and adults and am really interested in severe behaviour problems,self injury,that sort of stuff (that everyone else runs screaming from)

I am a funny old mix.
Heavy duty lentil weaver and yet stickler for routine and order and clear rules
Mind you I have to be.Dh away for weeks at a time and I couln't manage without such routine.

(Agree about tones being misinterpreted too.) .

Original poster

Mixedbiscuits · 02/02/2007 22:57

Oh don't worry about the hi-jack it's interesting stuff!

I did begin to question (as you do) whether DD was tired enough to go to bed, but then these past few days she hasn't had her afternoon nap and so she definitely was tired. But then u wonder if she's then overtired. It's all such a balance isn't it? So today I let her have a nap but it was late, so she is only just going to bed now. I shall see if the nap has had any bearing on how she behaves. Because it's only been this week that shes gone back to the horrific howling and I'm wondering if it was the nap dropping which has caused it.

I mean, she was still crying for perhaps 10-20 mins but nothing has pain staking has this... i shall let you know anon...

OP posts:

SmileysPeople · 03/02/2007 10:34

Let us know how it's going mixedbiscuit.

I have definetly found that overtiredness can cause more crying at bedtime, with DS2 if he's overtired the cryng is different more and uncontrollable rage or emtion, rather than just an 'objection' to going to bed, IYSWIM. I can tell the differnce with him, you may sopt something similar with your daughter.

With my DS2, he is also much more likley to wake up in the night if he goes to bed overtired, and again cryibg in a 'beside himself' but not really wanting anything way, rather then the wanting a drink or a cuddle type way.

Moondog, I agree that ABA isn't an unfeeling approach. For many people you cannot begin to deal with any deeper emotional issues while they are consumed in dealing with the surface behaviours. In fact the 2 the behaviour and emotion/feeling cannot be separted I think, as people believe, hence I'm now leaning much more to cognitive/behaviour.

I find whenever I tell people I'm a psycholgist they think I'm a psychotherapist, whereas in reality most psychologists (practising in the field) are more likely to be behaviourists, as it's the approach which actually helps people rather than just theorising.

SmileysPeople · 03/02/2007 10:40

If your still following Mixedbiscuit/Moondog it just struck me we have the perfect example of emotion/behaviour intertwined, with the overtired child leading to extended crying.

The problem presents as an emotional one, with a very distressed child not coping with their feelings and leading to extended crying.

The answer is a behavioural one, structure the naps so over tiredness doesn't occur and use CC at bedtime.

Obviously we all know from experience that it is nowhere as easy as it sounds, but it's the basis of an approach.

Original poster

Mixedbiscuits · 03/02/2007 15:46

Hi, quick update... last night you would not believe it (or you probably would because it's typical!) that my DD went to bed after her story and I there was absolutely no crying! Infact, on the contrary, we could hear her singing to her dolls for a short time before falling silent. Asleep!

So quite timely, I think you are quite right Smileyspeople about the nap causing the 'enraged' crying rather than just the objection to going to bed.

I'm not so niave to think that this is it and we've cracked it. Infact, it's just confused me a little more! But at least I've discovered the difference between the cries and the importance of her daytime nap! Well... nothing ventured...

OP posts:

SmileysPeople · 03/02/2007 16:01

Graet Mixedbiscuit!

But as I said my Ds2 will still stage the occasional spectacular objection to going to bed (he's 3) and we have to do the conrolled crying again.

I have now learnt with him though that differnce between the 'overtiredness' and 'trying it on' crying.

After a few nights with tears shed myself I have to say. I KNOW how hard it is.

Well done you though. Hopefully with the structure she won't get so overtired and emotional.
I never knew how true the phrase 'tired and emotional' was till I had kids.

Judy1234 · 03/02/2007 17:02

I was about to add the notsom's comment too. one of my twins has always needed an hour's less sleep than the other. It may be it's just too many hours in bed being demanded of that particular child or the nap is too late in the day. If it's not like that then stick with exactly how it's supposed to be done and make your entry to the room so rare and so dull there's no benefit in her kicking up such a fuss to achieve so boring an entrance.

moondog · 03/02/2007 18:55

Brilliant MB.
Yes Smiley,I agree with all you say.
A behaviour analyst sees emotions as a behaviour (albeit covert) but one that cannot be quantified,thus of little use in a functional analysis.

I think what drew me too it is the current obsession with a mentalist approach which oftrn leads nowhere,apart from endless navel gazing.

I am also so irritated by the assumption that generic counselling is seen as a cure all.

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