I disagree with leaving children to cry especially at night

[serena]

I have been making comments to this effect and feel that I am alone on this site in not following Gina Ford routines etc. I really wanted to know if there are others out there who might agree with me .

serena - I imagine mothers cry downstairs when their babies need them because they are so bloody exasperated and exhausted from not knowing what to do for the best ALL the time and they'd just like a break! If tending to a crying baby always solved a "problem" isn't that what most parents would do? Sometimes, you just need space but that isn't necessarily going to make you feel good about leaving the baby for a bit!

It certainly won't be Pupuce who said GF "advocates 20 minutes of screaming" because GF does NOT advocate this, and Pupuce is exceptionally well informed on Gina Ford so would not pass on misinformation.
What do you perceive is so ironic about the papoose/Pupuce thing? You appear to be making the assumption that GF followers(Pupuce being your chosen example) would not carry their baby around in a sling. Why not? ( never was much into slings personally but I know so called attachment parenting is big on slings)
For all you or I know Pupuce may spend every waking minute with half the babies in the neighbourhood strapped to her back. Would that make her a better parent in your eyes? Does the fact she then places them in their own room at certain times of day and night to sleep make her a bad parent? Don't you think she is perfectly capable of making loving parental choices of her own, whether or not slings are part of them? She certainly comes across as someone who cares a great deal about the happiness and well being of her kids ( as do you)

You say " babies thrive on closeness.." . I don't see anyone disagreeing with this, least of all Pupuce who has several times advocated skin to skin "sessions"with her babies/children.
If you want to carry your children round in a sling and sleep with them in your bed that is fine . Good luck.
I don't want to do either. Sling hurts my back and I like to sleep on my own. But don't worry about my children being short on cuddles/ closeness because they are not, and I suspect Pupuce's aren't either.

Pupuce hope you don't mind me answering on your behalf. Do correct me if I have misrepresented you at all.

Serena, the title to this message thread says 'I don't agree with children being left to cry', yet in your message you talk exclusively about babies. Can you clarify what ages your thoughts apply to? I can see AP being most relevant to a young baby, but less so the older they get - toddlers, children, teenagers (remembering scummymummy's comments )

Also, why do you think babies, as soon as they are mobile, at times want to put some physical distance between themselve and their mothers to explore the world around them? This seems to be instictive, too.

As you've read this thread, you can see that we're not all GF followers. But equally, the people here who do follow GF, like pupuce and bloss, have interpreted her views according to their own mothering instincts, as they have been at pains to point out.

Sorry, I see you refer to children part way down your message, serena. I am still not sure how far you take the never leaving them idea though. IME, crying, tantrumming young children, yes, even at night, sometimes need space, not physical closeness, in order to calm down again.

My daughter, 21 months, has been a frequent waker at night. I tried controlled crying at around 7/8 months as she was waking, averagely, every 2 hours and I was a wreck. It worked and she started sleeping through the night within about 5 nights of training (which involved me leaving her for a maximum of 5 minutes after which time I would go in, smooth her, comfort her, etc). Then she started teething and hasn't slept properly since.
I grabbed the bull by the horns last weekend as 21 months (nearly) of completely broken sleep is exhausting. The first night was pretty bad, she cried, I went in every 5 minutes to calm her and left again while she was awake, she cried again, etc. This lasted 1.5 hours BUT she had constant reassurance that I would always come back, would never just leave her to cry.
THE NEXT NIGHT SHE SLEPT RIGHT THROUGH UNTIL 7.15AM. She has slept through the night all this week, maybe waking to cry for literally 30 seconds, turn around and go off. I then creep in and check on her and she's fast asleep.
This is a complete breakthrough for us, a whole week of her sleeping in her own bed, right through the night. She is as happy as larry, actually wakes up in a completely great mood (big difference there, used to wake up crying), she chattters away to us as soon as she wakes and kisses us, ie she doesn't resent us.
Try and tell me you shouldn't leave your child to cry!!!!! BUT, obviously, always assure them that you are there for them. This has been an amazing week for us and we wish we'd tried to tackle this earlier and I think it does work when done responsibly.

Janus, exact same experience with ds. Did controlled crying in just the same way and never left him for more than 10 mins. All benefited hugely.

i have recently bought and read CLBB so i could join in. My dd is 12 weeks and although sleeping through the night was screaming through the day ( i first posted here for advice) Dd was very contented until about 6 weeks my hv diagnosed attention seeking and then insisted it was colic alhough I told her she would backbend rather than bring her knees up. When I read the part on reflux I was straight on the phone to my doctor and he has confirmed that this is what she has and not colic. So I can only thank GF as my dd is happy and contented again. As for the routines I dont follow them strictly just use them as a guideline and there are times when my dd has to be left to cry but she doesnt leave my sight. Her room isn't darkened either I believe in getting them use to sleeping in daylight and with noise around them - what does anyone else think or do on this score. Also does anybody else bb suffer from reflux?

OK sleep experts - if anyone could read my message under "7 month old wakes up every 2 hours at night!" - grateful for any views???

Serena, "pupuce" is a French term of endearment which is not remotely connected to papooses. So her name is not ironic.
As Pupuce herself will probably get round to telling you when she catches up with the posts on this thread.

Yes Pupuce is a term of endearment - Thanks Marina
Thank you also to Jasper...
I am not sure it is worth answering Serena's post to be honest (at least IMO) as the title of the thread has NOTHING to do with Gina Ford IMO !
I will not again repeat what I have said hundreds of times and it seems that the people who are interested are aware of like Jasper. And has anyone ever seen Serena look remotely interested in an opinion other than hers or learn from others - SHE has teh truth.
Sorry I had to have a go

I quite liked Serena sharing her thoughts on this issue - she is not being particularly critical of others, just voicing her opinion.

I've read through most of this thread and am left wondering how mothers do get their babies or toddlers off to bed at night! OK, some use a crying method (I have resorted to this occasionally), but what works best for the non-crying lobby? Tips please, as my previously easy to settle 16 month old has suddenly become difficult to settle (already have blackout blinds, so not really sure why - teething, or recent increased mobility maybe.) For those that cuddle a baby to sleep, do you think this will cause a problem as the toddler gets older and needs to get self to sleep?
Also, for what it's worth, I've read GF CLB and was at first ready to bin the book, then found myself rereading it when my babe started to put himself on someting like her routine (maybe he read it?) Now I hold GF in high regard, but use her as a guide, not a bible!

Spark, I have got a 2 and 3 1/2 year old. From day one I used to get them to sleep at night by holding them in a chair and giving them a bottle. When they got a bit older I let them take a bottle of milk to bed in a any way up cup and they fell to sleep on that. When I had got them nappy trained I decided to stop the milk last thing so now give them their milk downstairs before they go up to bed. They went through a phase of asking for their milk in bed, I just told them to get in to bed and I'd go and see if I could find any milk (not intending to get any)! They then learnt to fall asleep on their own without the milk. Sometimes my daughter calls out to us but we just talk to her through the door but never go in. This has worked brilliant for me although I'm sure their are a lot of people who don't agree with this method.

Whatever works best I guess!! I do wonder about these mothers who are overly critical of leaving babies/toddlers to cry at night, I wonder if they have ever been that tired and frustrated after getting up again and again with a toddler who refuses to go to bed. Have they ever been that tired and fed up that they have literally wanted to throw their child through the window? And I'm sorry if that upsets anyone, but if any mother said to me that they have never felt like that towards her child, I would think she was lying.

If mothers want to have their children in bed with them and strapped to them all day then that's fine. But at some point children need to be independant and need to go into their own bed. Just when do you put them into their own bed? 16?? Will it not be more traumatic for them than the baby who's been sleeping on it's own since it was 3 months old? And how do you manage to have a sex life when sharing your bed? How do you get the cleaning/washing/cooking done with a baby strapped to you?

Mother's deserve a life too, and a bit of time away from their child. And to imply that mother's who encourage their child to be independant from them also advocate physical punishment is just ridiculous! We all love our children and want to do the very best by them, which is why we spend so much time on Mumsnet seeking advice and sharing experiences. Why can't we all just be accepting of each other's ways instead of being critical and having this "My way is much better than yours" attitude?

Rhubarb, Don't you think that sometimes it is obvious that sometimes other friends methods of doing things can't be right if they are not working? I don't think we should say 'my ways better than yours' but sometimes people need advice?

ames - I've got to comment: I can't believe your hv said that a 6 week old was attention seeking! what a loony! I'm surprised you didn't punch him / her? I would have been tempted.....

Does ANYONE here leave their baby / child to cry for more than 5 - 10mins? Does anyone do it for other than what they believe might be the child's best interests / their own frustration / calming themselves or the child down? Does anyone not want to walk over hot coals to make their child as contented and confident as possible? RIGHT - so whats the problem? It seems to me by the very nature of the women who are on this site, We are not the people to talk to. Serena - your efforts would be better spent lobbying your local mp to push for some kind of parenting class to be introduced to all schools at 15, along with the citizenship thing they do now. And personally, I do find your style of writing confrontational and bordering on personal, which it seems is what people are trying to avoid here. It's a debate, after all.

Ames, all 3 of mine have had reflux, one had it until 3y. I'm sure if you search there will be other posts. I'm glad that the doctor has helped out so promptly I was told with dd to wait for her to grow out of it, we had to wait over a year to see a paediatrician.

On another note, can you see a different HV, the one who told you the baby was attention-seeking seems very out of step..?

Sister, this is more or less the approach I have followed, DS now 3 years 3 months and having drink of milk from an open cup, then going to bed happily to have a story read to him, haven't found any problem with this.

Spark I am probably one of those with a foot in both camps, I agree with routine but not someone else's routine and although I wouldn't leave a small baby to cry I think an older baby/toddler could be trying it on for attention (they cry, then smile and laugh when you go in to see what is wrong etc) and yes I think in these circumstances controlled crying works, have tried it myself.

manna & angharad thanx for your comments about the hv. Unfortunatly the regular hv is on maternity leave so i've seen a different one each week. Her other suggestion was to put her on a bottle and i thought they were suppossed to encourage bf. Funnily enough though dd had her injections today and guess who was there, so i had great pleasure in telling her it was reflux causing the problems!!! She went very quiet after that!!!!

Just re-read Sister's post and would just like to add that my DS rarely fell asleep with his cup, we tended to use the time he was drinking his milk to read him a story, then he would have his teeth brushed. Seen too many horrific pictures of children with 'nursing bottle syndrome' (I think that is what it is called) to recommend anyone let their child fall asleep with a bottle/cup. I think the milk in bed thing just settled DS although we have now stopped this and he drinks a small amount of milk from an open cup before he goes to the toilet last thing at night, hoping this will eventually help him be dry at night.

Sister - I find it fine if people give advice, it's when they start telling you what to do on the basis that it worked for them so they are damned sure it will work for everyone else and you are stupid if you don't try it. I get a lot of this now. My dd is extremely shy and clingy at the minute, if I am at playgroup she gets upset if I so much as stand up, she clings to my legs and gets very, very upset. Only this morning I had mothers who had never spoken to me before coming up and saying "If I were you ...." Which gets my back up straight away as they are not me! Then they tell me that 'tough love' is the best and that I should leave her with them whilst I do my own thing. They were even coming up to us and picking her up to take her away from me, making her even more hysterical! I know they were trying to help, but they just took over and that is not the way I want to do things!

So advice, when it's asked for is fine, but interference and intolerance of other ways is definitely not - IMO!

I left my dd last night to cry having got up for the fourth time and feeling knackered having to get up early and come to work and she went off after 2 minutes. I left her because she had her temper tantrum cry on and it was really getting to me. I'd go in, soothe / cuddle her and then she would start all over again. I left her out of sheer exhaustion the fourth time, I kept meaning to go and just couldn't get myself out of bed anyway she woke happy as anything and seemingly not upset with me.

It's such a tricky subject I think that each parent must do what they feel comfortable with. I know my dd is smothered with love so I feel confident in leaving her for a few minutes to teach her to settle herself.

Pupuce - I haven't contributed to this thread before as I think everything has been said a million times pro and against GF ! But I thought her book made a lot of sense and did follow her routines more or less - I also left my DS to cry himself to sleep at 6 weeks - and since then have never had any problems putting him to bed at night (woke once for a feed until 8 months). So, just to let you know that I am a confirmed GF follower - and proud to use my own name !!

Thanks Lindy
Glad you think the book is good for your baby and you. I was reading Libby Purves this morning in the train and she says something like : it's basically impossible to have any sort of routine with your baby before he is 3 months old.
She does base the book on her OWN experience and that of 50 of her friends + it was written 16 years ago... but there are plenty of people out there who think it's impossible or that you must be mean and leave your baby to cry for hours to be able to get to a routine with a young baby. I think several of us have proven that it was not the case - but I don't think any of us will manage to change their mind.

Just to add that I think Libby Purves is a great writer - her book on Family Life, can't remember the exact title, is wonderful, especially for families with young teenagers.

Sorry to change the subject!